If we have to vote this year or the next, women who will not vote Labour due to the GRA raise your hand

[TerraNovaTwo]

As above

Sunrise and sunset often look similar, despite being at opposite ends of the day and opposite points of the compass. Anything taken out of context can be "in line" with something else. It's such a lame thing to say - mindless.

ps @DottyDoge Still waiting on an explanation from you beyond the implied "you're just being hysterical silly billies" stuff.

@HaroldMeeker

So what DO you think the Self ID legislation, if and/or when passed, will lead to?

This is where I am.
There's a load of evidence that states, quite clearly, that some males are already abusing self ID principles to get into spaces that we can, technically currently legally gatekeep. It's already happening. Do you think it becoming a legal entitlement will stop it?

Shop changing rooms marked for women are now mixed sex in many cases, because the shops have been told (wrongly) that they can't not allow males in.
Swimming pools and sports centres now say they can't stop a male from going into the changing rooms marked female, despite the law saying otherwise. Do you think the law changing will make this less or more common?
How about schools, and Girl Guides and the safety of our female children? Shared toilets for 14 year olds, with boys sniggering outside the cubicle or trying to look over, whilst the girls try to change tampons.

How about female sports, which are being crushed under the weight of male physiology. Look up Lia Thomas. Yes, it's in the USA, but give me any reason why it wouldn't happen here. Or what about the male sexed rugby player with a place on the women's team, "folding" the opposition "like deckchairs"? What concerns do you have for the female players? How about the male cricket player who plays on the mens AND women's teams, and who has set records that no female will ever beat.

How about the census? How, if people are allowed to use their gender identity rather than their sex, will that census mean anything? How do you allocate resources or plan for the future for sex-based services if you've no idea how many people you have in each sex in the area concerned?

How are crime statistics being skewed? How many "women" are now rapists who used their penises to sexually destroy a female victim?

How about being in court to see your rapist on trial, and being forced, as their victim, to call them "she" and use terms like "her penis"?

Tara Wolf's victim was forced, in court, by the judge to refer to Tara using female pronouns, or the victim would face contempt of court charges. They were in court - where you're told you HAVE to tell the truth, and Maria MacLachlan was obligated to LIE under oath as part of the trial. Forced to lie. In court.

Where's your humanity?

@DottyDoge

Just in case you missed it.

@HaroldMeeker

So what DO you think the Self ID legislation, if and/or when passed, will lead to?

This is where I am.
There's a load of evidence that states, quite clearly, that some males are already abusing self ID principles to get into spaces that we can, technically currently legally gatekeep. It's already happening. Do you think it becoming a legal entitlement will stop it?

Shop changing rooms marked for women are now mixed sex in many cases, because the shops have been told (wrongly) that they can't not allow males in.
Swimming pools and sports centres now say they can't stop a male from going into the changing rooms marked female, despite the law saying otherwise. Do you think the law changing will make this less or more common?
How about schools, and Girl Guides and the safety of our female children? Shared toilets for 14 year olds, with boys sniggering outside the cubicle or trying to look over, whilst the girls try to change tampons.

How about female sports, which are being crushed under the weight of male physiology. Look up Lia Thomas. Yes, it's in the USA, but give me any reason why it wouldn't happen here. Or what about the male sexed rugby player with a place on the women's team, "folding" the opposition "like deckchairs"? What concerns do you have for the female players? How about the male cricket player who plays on the mens AND women's teams, and who has set records that no female will ever beat.

How about the census? How, if people are allowed to use their gender identity rather than their sex, will that census mean anything? How do you allocate resources or plan for the future for sex-based services if you've no idea how many people you have in each sex in the area concerned?

How are crime statistics being skewed? How many "women" are now rapists who used their penises to sexually destroy a female victim?

How about being in court to see your rapist on trial, and being forced, as their victim, to call them "she" and use terms like "her penis"?

Tara Wolf's victim was forced, in court, by the judge to refer to Tara using female pronouns, or the victim would face contempt of court charges. They were in court - where you're told you HAVE to tell the truth, and Maria MacLachlan was obligated to LIE under oath as part of the trial. Forced to lie. In court.

Where's your humanity?

I never heard about the court bit before, that actually hurts.

@HaroldMeeker thanks Harold. I really really don’t understand why some women don’t see this as fundamental. Is it they haven’t read enough or know enough about what is going on. Do they not know that there is a trans woman girl guide leader who poses with a gun on social media and if people complain about ‘her’ to the girl guides they are now being pursued by the police?

Do people not know that the head of the rape crisis centre in Edinburgh is a trans woman with penis who has said that women who have been raped need to reshape their trauma.

Do people know that women are getting sexually assaulted in prison by trans women. Many of whom conveniently decide to identify as women when convicted and then when released they magically decide they are men again. Why? Because they want to go into female jail surrounded by potential prey.

Do people not know that Lia Thomas - trans woman who has gone through male puberty - so has bigger muscles, heart and limbs - is competing against women - beating women by 34 seconds - and that the women are not able to speak out about it for fear of harming their future careers.

Do people not know that teenagers are being told that they are ‘in the wrong bodies’ and put onto irreversible puberty blockers. Ruining their sex lives forever. Often autistic kids, kids with other mental health problems - or indeed gay kids. This ideology is terrible homophobic.

Do people not know that the head of Stonewall said that lesbians who won’t sleep with a trans woman (with penis) is as bad as a racist and is definitely transphobic. Forcing lesbians to suck dick - google the cotton ceiling. Disgusting.

It goes on and on and on. And self id isn’t even bloody law yet. Imagine if it goes into law.

WAKE UP LADIES AND SMELL THE COFFEE

Me. Will not vote for Labour whilst they continue to ignore the fact that many women need single sex spaces.

I will vote for whoever is likely to get rid of the Tories. Whoever that will be labour or lib dem

I won't be voting for Labour while they can't define a woman, if they don't know what a woman is how could they effectively resolve issues directly affecting women such as VAWG, women in poverty etc.?

WTF For why are people in UK going on about "Far Right"?
We have nothing like the Republicans in US who are banning classic books from schools. Nothing like QAnon, Nothing comparable to AfD.
Get real don't get side-tracked, stay focussed.

@Wandawide yes it’s odd isn’t it. Gender ideology is homophobic and reinforces old fashioned stereotypes. I would say that is more right wing!

@frazzledali

Fucking hell, you're all obsessed to the point of insanity. Can you not hear yourselves?

@frazzledali Being concern with women losing our protections, rights and safe spaces is 'obsessed'? Well I'd rather be obsessed with human rights for women than be a femphobic.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Keir Starmer has the drive and personality of a boiled haddock. Nobody's impressed with him because he's totally unimpressive.

I think if you are completely focused on one issue then probably our current political system isn't for you, as with only two main parties they are supposed to both represent quite a range of views.

I don't get the changing room argument - local leisure centres are all cubicles - its only private health clubs that still have the old fashioned open changing rooms anyway. I don't see there being a huge number of men being prepared to be demonised by society and have they mental health seriously damaged by presenting as female so they can successfully enter a female changing room at a private health club. A few highly damaged individuals who would have engaged in other criminality anyway, quite possibly, but its probably a lot easier just to sneak in and put in some cameras if you want a good look.

The sports thing is interesting and valid, but I'm not sure there is a good answer to how a person who went through puberty as a man can be on a level playing field in either men or women's sport. However sport is very comparative anyway - I don't have the genes to be an elite gymnast however much I wanted to be. Its not ever a completely level playing field as some people have so many natural advantages.

I understand it's not compulsory to vote in England? So unless there is a GC progressive candidate to vote for, why not have a sort of boycott of the election, meaning women don't vote at all? If enough women didn't vote this time, it might make a difference and make men sit up and notice and change things. Withholding from voting may be the key.

@DottyDoge

You're GC like my mum is, knowing you can't change sex but thinking it's all "a storm in a teacup". Many of us think it's rather fundamental to have women's sex based rights protected in law, and we won't vote for a party that has clearly stated their intention to remove them.

In the same way, there are many who think it's rather fundamental to vote for the party that on balance, will do the most for women, rather than to reject that for some imagined threat to remove sex based rights.

@DottyDoge Except it ISN'T an 'imagined threat', if you think it is, you haven't paid any attention. How can you still be so deeply misinformed?

@entropynow

Translation: how many of you will allow the Tory party to fuck over the entire country once again because you just can't bear the idea that trans people exist?

WHY does MN allow this tripe?

@entropynow This is about women's rights and safety being eroded, not about us not being able to bear the idea of trans people existing, don't be so deceitful and disingenuous. Why is it that you are desperate to silence women? Is it because you can't bear the idea that women exist and want to be safe?

@NotBadConsidering

I can’t believe there are some people here who think this is a “single issue”, which will result in the (debatable) short term positives that Labour might bring being lost. It’s not. It affects everything.

You can’t have misogyny added as a hate crime because it will then mean men being hateful towards men.

You can’t be sure women are disproportionately affected by anything like austerity because the definition will include men.

You can’t provide health services appropriately because the definition will include men.

You can’t provide prison services exclusively for women because the definition will include men.

You can’t provide sport exclusively for women and girls because the definition will include men and boys.

Essentially, think of anything that exclusively affects women, is supposed to be exclusively for women, is supposedly protected for women and realise that will disappear. Imagine everything you see that says “women” then mentally add “plus men” to it and think about whether you’re happy with that. This is not a single issue, this is a single issue that has widespread ramifications for every single thing that women have, and if Labour were to get this legislation through, do you think the men who benefit will let a future Tory government roll it back? No chance.

So it’s either another 10 years of Tory rule and the negative effects on women in austerity, poverty, disability in the short term, or centuries of politics where women as a sex class doesn’t exist.

And if people suffer under Tory rule as a result of Labour being unable to move on from this issue to win votes, then it is not the fault of the voters, the fault entirely lies with Labour for failing to realise the implications of this. No one should be made to feel bad because they are not prepared to send the women and girls of the future century down the river for the sake of getting rid of a transient bunch of Tory fuckwits.

This explains why it's so important to not vote Labour. Once it's in, you can't remove it because the MALE TORIES won't allow it.

You can't unscramble the egg.

@SantaClawsServiette

And if people suffer under Tory rule as a result of Labour being unable to move on from this issue to win votes, then it is not the fault of the voters, the fault entirely lies with Labour for failing to realise the implications of this.

It's like, Labour has some great policy ideas, but they have one policy so many people just completely balk at, they can't win even among the people who like their other policies.

In what world do they keep that on the agenda? What is the thinking?

And this.

@HaroldMeeker

So what DO you think the Self ID legislation, if and/or when passed, will lead to?

This is where I am.
There's a load of evidence that states, quite clearly, that some males are already abusing self ID principles to get into spaces that we can, technically currently legally gatekeep. It's already happening. Do you think it becoming a legal entitlement will stop it?

Shop changing rooms marked for women are now mixed sex in many cases, because the shops have been told (wrongly) that they can't not allow males in.
Swimming pools and sports centres now say they can't stop a male from going into the changing rooms marked female, despite the law saying otherwise. Do you think the law changing will make this less or more common?
How about schools, and Girl Guides and the safety of our female children? Shared toilets for 14 year olds, with boys sniggering outside the cubicle or trying to look over, whilst the girls try to change tampons.

How about female sports, which are being crushed under the weight of male physiology. Look up Lia Thomas. Yes, it's in the USA, but give me any reason why it wouldn't happen here. Or what about the male sexed rugby player with a place on the women's team, "folding" the opposition "like deckchairs"? What concerns do you have for the female players? How about the male cricket player who plays on the mens AND women's teams, and who has set records that no female will ever beat.

How about the census? How, if people are allowed to use their gender identity rather than their sex, will that census mean anything? How do you allocate resources or plan for the future for sex-based services if you've no idea how many people you have in each sex in the area concerned?

How are crime statistics being skewed? How many "women" are now rapists who used their penises to sexually destroy a female victim?

How about being in court to see your rapist on trial, and being forced, as their victim, to call them "she" and use terms like "her penis"?

Tara Wolf's victim was forced, in court, by the judge to refer to Tara using female pronouns, or the victim would face contempt of court charges. They were in court - where you're told you HAVE to tell the truth, and Maria MacLachlan was obligated to LIE under oath as part of the trial. Forced to lie. In court.

Where's your humanity?

If this doesn't make those in denial or naive see sense, then nothing will because they aren't engaging in good faith and are in willful denial.

I won't be voting for them whilst they peddle this crap. I don't think their other policies are that great/realistic either, they need to get back to their roots and remember on which premise and ideals the Labour Party was founded. I would never vote tory either so not sure next election unless things change.