Why do men do this

[Tevion28]

Following on from the Ashling Murthy murder and the likes of the Sarah Everard I've been thinking alot as to why men do this and I can only think that they must have a deep hatred for women and feel threatened by us for some reason. What do you all think I'm not convinced that these men all have mental health problems myself.

@dafey

So Men who batter woman and leave them after marrying still have the audiacity to think woman are upset they do not have the chance to be lucky to be chosen by these lotharios.

I also think there is an issue with some women being accepting of appalling behaviour. You see it on MNs threads etc & you think why are these women putting up with this crap & even questioning themselves.

This is the problem - woman put up with it and the cycle continues. Low self esteem - seeing their own mother do it etc.

As posted above - socially I have had some comments from Woman ‘HOW do you attract these guys’ (when talking about how a date behaved poorly and I dumped them) or ‘YOU can certainly pick them’, or ‘YOU certainly go through them’. These comments are usually from woman who settled for these manipulative abusers who shame woman like me for not settling. I can think of one imparticular who said this to
Me - only to later learn he had slammed her head against her fridge after a cocaine binge.

So woman are judged for dumping them, judged for staying with them. But the true fundamental question is WHY ARE MEN ALLOWED TO GET AWAY WITH IT AND DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

@PleasantBirthday

I agree this is not right. But I'm curious, if I were to leave £100 cash or the latest iphone on the dashboard of my car in a not-especially nice neighborhood at night. If I came back in the morning to find it stolen, would you be just as outraged at the comments implying I was partly at fault for leaving the valuables on display?

Why do you think it's appropriate to compare women to inanimate goods? You know we can't leave our vaginas in a safe, don't you? You can't be out and about as a woman without your vagina.

Don't be silly. Of course I'm not comparing your vagina to an iphone. What I said is we think it's acceptable to protect valuables, and when they're let easily accessible to criminals, we all will have thoughts of 'why did you leave it in the open?'.

That doesn't condone or excuse the crime. Nor does it blame the victim. It merely acknowledges the fact that bad people exist, and we need to take precautions.

It's sad that a woman might be afraid to walk through a park at night. It's also sad that I can't leave an iphone on the car dashboard. But sad as it may be, that isn't because of our failing as a society, but because of the reality of human beings.

Criminals exist. Not much we can do about it.

What for example? I mean imagine I'm the PM and I'm giving a budget of £10bn, what would you do with that to make sure no woman gets attacked? I'm truly curious to hear what you think might actually be done.

• Go after absent fathers and force them to pay child maintenance with no option not to and no ability to wriggle out of it by hiding earnings

• get rid of the benefit cap and the two children cap

• harsher sentencing for domestic abusers

• support packages for people leaving abusive relationships that includes mental health support and financial help

• no unsupervised child contact arrangements for domestic abusers unless they are shown to have properly engaged with rehabilitation programmes

All of the above would go a long way to enabling women to leave unhealthy relationships and abusive relationships so that their children are not growing up in a household where fear, violence, and intimidation are the norm (it would enable men to leave these relationships too however in the context of this discussion it's about women and in real life it is an issue that mainly affects women).

• reinstate funding for Sure Start and childrens centres because early intervention improves outcomes for all children but particularly for vulnerable children

• make misogyny a hate crime with the same penalties and processes attached to other hate crimes. Promote anti-misogyny messaging via roadshows, advertising, and targeted campaigns. Have workplaces and schools include it in their diversity and equality packages alongside anti-misogyny policies

• streamlined investigative processes for violent and sexual crimes with robust sentencing measures in place that send the message "this will not be tolerated"

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, there will be more to follow.

[quote dafey]@BellatricksStrange I would say my feelings are also shaped by childhood. I grew up in a then rough part of London & there are things I do as 2nd nature because of that, same for male members of family. Eg not having headphones in, phone out, car doors unlocked, not cutting through parks etc

Of course I wouldn't leave money out in the open, however I think there is a difference between making your home look less opportunistic to a burglar & women being able to live their lives. Do you think women should control their movements and lives to protect themselves? [/quote]
Depends what you mean by 'should'. Ideally, everyone should be free and safe to do whatever they like, and not be afraid of crime. In the un-ideal world we live in, where crime unfortunately exists, it would be prudent of people to take precautions not to be a victim of a crime.

I accept 'precautions' doesn't have the same meaning for a 6ft man as a 5ft woman, but that is biology rather than sociology.

It's society that tells teenage boys that they are worth more than teenage girls, to the point where boys dominate and take up so much space. It's society that causes girls to be desperate for male approval, that they become gatekeepers of other girls' sexuality and use those same derogatory names against them.

@dafey

How would you change or phrase the law to get a better conviction rate?

The whole process needs to be overhauled, the way "victims" are treated right from the start of often wanting. A family member is in the Met, they wouldn't report a rape in most cases, says it all.

Doesn't really say it all at all. My expensive bike was stolen a few weeks ago, and I didn't bother reporting because it would have been futile. Sad reality but not one that can be changed by parliament.

BellatricksStrange

You said
"What for example? I mean imagine I'm the PM and I'm giving a budget of £10bn, what would you do with that to make sure no woman gets attacked? I'm truly curious to hear what you think might actually be done."

For a start they could put money into researching this area.

Research is always at the start of new inititiaves. Put money into research. Establish taskforces to interview women around the country, asking women what problems they are having with safety.

Then from their research, implement new safety inititiatives. So these would be research based inititiatives.

Then monitor these initiatives, and look at their success after a year. If they are working, put more money into them. If different initiatives need to be started, do them.

What are they doing at the moment? Are they doing much in the UK? Because in Ireland I see sweet fuck all being done for women.

For example I work in youth work right now. I see all the funding streams from the Government. There is loads of money being pumped into initiatives for young people in Ireland. There is loads of money being put into helping young people reach education and work. There is huge money being put into researching young peoples lives and how to help them. Millions and millions of Euro.

But we have a HUGE problem in Ireland with violence towards women, with rape of women, with killing of women.
And I see NO MONEY allocated towards research into this area. There are no government funding streams. There are zero funding streams put towards helping women's safety. There are no task forces establised.
When there easily could be! Women are still seen as worth not much.

It will have to reach absolute crisis point, with more and more women being killed, before the Government eventually does something here.

Don't be silly. Of course I'm not comparing your vagina to an iphone. What I said is we think it's acceptable to protect valuables, and when they're let easily accessible to criminals, we all will have thoughts of 'why did you leave it in the open?'

And my point is, the analogy doesn't work because women can't just do that. We have to live our lives. Our bodies are us, we use them to live. We can't protect them by locking them away and live our lives.

You'll have to think of something more appropriate than comparing women to priceless jewels that have to be hidden from view.

When a man hurts or kills a man, he just needs to make sure he never gets caught.
When a man kills a woman, he just needs to be sure she deserved it.

@BellatricksStrange

Secondly. Women are weaker than men. So your argument that its a power over weaker people thing, supports the analysis that it is a men vs women thing, because the male population is stronger than the female population.

I think what they're trying to say - certainly what I've said numerous times - is that feminism/mumsnet likes to pretend it's a cultural issue, with 'men' hating or looking down on 'women'.

It's not. As a society, ie what is socially and culturally acceptable, we're doing just fine. No decent person condones violence against women or indeed against anyone else, and nobody thinks rape is ok. We have laws in place, which are rigorously enforced, to combat miscreants.

The problem is that as long as humans will exist, at least in this shape and form, there will be criminals. Including violent criminals. And criminals on the whole tend to go for easy prey. Which in context of men and women, is usually the women.

This isn't evidence of a broken society, or something that can be fixed by education or whatever. As a society we know and accept that violence is bad. But the sad reality is that there will always be those who don't care, and still engage in crime.

There is no overarching patriarchy. There are only flawed human beings, who will usually go for those weaker than they.

I disagree. I think the evidence of the disadvantage women face in multiple areas is quite clear that men's concerns are placed above women's. 'Invisible women' gives a good overview of some of this.

And we are currently, in countries across the world, dismantling the single sex spaces that protect women from assault or from the fear of assault. Its been done without consulting women and without any research or evidence gathering into the effects of this on women. And this is happening because society is very clearly saying women's rights and safety can be put aside in favour of another group. And women who object to this are subject to hate and vilification and sexualised threats.

All this is happening because of a very deep rooted cultural misogyny.

And the worldwide popularity of porn featuring women being raped and degraded, kinda shows an awful lot of men are a lot more ok with rape than you might want to think.

@JuicySatsuma85

psychologists do generally class these sort of murders as “rage/retaliation” murders. These men generally have been enraged by a woman at some point in their lives (abusive mother or abusive father who makes the son believe mother is terrible & deserves what she gets). They then take this rage at one woman and take it out on womenkind.

I don't buy that it's generally due to abusive parents.

I had the exact same good parents and upbringing as my brothers and yet they have both had a hatred of women.

@PleasantBirthday

Don't be silly. Of course I'm not comparing your vagina to an iphone. What I said is we think it's acceptable to protect valuables, and when they're let easily accessible to criminals, we all will have thoughts of 'why did you leave it in the open?'

And my point is, the analogy doesn't work because women can't just do that. We have to live our lives. Our bodies are us, we use them to live. We can't protect them by locking them away and live our lives.

You'll have to think of something more appropriate than comparing women to priceless jewels that have to be hidden from view.

But I didn't say women's bodies have to be hidden from view. Go back and read what I actually wrote.

The point I'm making is that while it's sad that anyone needs to take any precautions against being the victim of a crime, it's the sad reality of our world. And it's no more outrageous to say women should take precautions than it is to say owners of expensive stuff should take precautions.

This doesn't imply it's the ideal or that the victim is to blame. It's just a reflection of reality.

@BellatricksStrange

Don't be silly. Of course I'm not comparing your vagina to an iphone. What I said is we think it's acceptable to protect valuables, and when they're let easily accessible to criminals, we all will have thoughts of 'why did you leave it in the open?'.

Framing women as 'valuable' doesn't make your victim blaming any less disgusting.

Doesn't really say it all at all.

Personally I think it's quite damning if a detective is put off reporting rape because they know the process it says a lot.

@BellatricksStrange

The point I'm making is that while it's sad that anyone needs to take any precautions against being the victim of a crime, it's the sad reality of our world. And it's no more outrageous to say women should take precautions than it is to say owners of expensive stuff should take precautions.

What precautions did you want Sarah Everard to get, when confronted with a massive policeman wearing his police belt and arresting her?

What precautions did you want Ashling Murphy to take when jogging on a busy route in daylight?

What precautions did you want Molly McClaren to take when walking out of the gym in broad daylight to her car and being stabbed to death by her ex-boyfriend?

Depends what you mean by 'should'. Ideally, everyone should be free and safe to do whatever they like, and not be afraid of crime. In the un-ideal world we live in, where crime unfortunately exists, it would be prudent of people to take precautions not to be a victim of a crime.

But what are you classing as precautions?

But I didn't say women's bodies have to be hidden from view. Go back and read what I actually wrote.

This is really tiresome. I'm sure you can't be this obtuse in real life.

@dafey

Doesn't really say it all at all.

Personally I think it's quite damning if a detective is put off reporting rape because they know the process it says a lot.

The process is - even with the most caring and emphasising police officers - traumatising and unlikely to result in a conviction due to the nature of the crime. Obviously they'll be reluctant to report. That doesn't really tell us anything though.

Don't be silly. Of course I'm not comparing your vagina to an iphone. What I said is we think it's acceptable to protect valuables, and when they're let easily accessible to criminals, we all will have thoughts of 'why did you leave it in the open?'.

But women do take precautions continually, you cannot compare because women have to have a presence to live their lives.

[quote eldora]@BellatricksStrange

The point I'm making is that while it's sad that anyone needs to take any precautions against being the victim of a crime, it's the sad reality of our world. And it's no more outrageous to say women should take precautions than it is to say owners of expensive stuff should take precautions.

What precautions did you want Sarah Everard to get, when confronted with a massive policeman wearing his police belt and arresting her?

What precautions did you want Ashling Murphy to take when jogging on a busy route in daylight?

What precautions did you want Molly McClaren to take when walking out of the gym in broad daylight to her car and being stabbed to death by her ex-boyfriend?[/quote]
Huh? You've totally missed my point. Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trying again. Go through everything that was said, what I quoted and what I replied, and maybe you'll get it.

That doesn't really tell us anything though.

It tells me the system doesn't work but you can disagree

@BellatricksStrange what do you propose?

You've totally missed my point. Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trying again. Go through everything that was said, what I quoted and what I replied, and maybe you'll get it.

The only point you seem to be making is women should ideally keep themselves safe by not going out & it's the status quo that men will attack women so why change anything. Excellent contribution!

[quote dafey]@BellatricksStrange what do you propose?[/quote]
Sadly, I don't think much can be done. For street crime, more police visible on the streets might help. Perhaps an overall 'tougher on crime' attitude, but I'm not sure there's sufficient evidence for that.

I just don't believe in blaming the patriarchy or some other bogeyman, for what is simply the sad failings of human beings. As a culture we don't condone crime, and as a civilised country we enforce it. But all this can only go so far to protect the innocent.

That said, not all neighborhoods are the same. So perhaps there is something to be said for midlle-class-ery. If only everyone could be middle-class.

@BellatricksStrange

Huh? You've totally missed my point. Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trying again. Go through everything that was said, what I quoted and what I replied, and maybe you'll get it.

This is the classic cop-out answer when you don't have an answer.

The fact is, there is no precaution these women could have taken when faced with the reality of men who hate and want to kill women.

Even if they stayed home, they would be at risk from their own husbands and partners.