AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

@Namechangetimes100

That’s actually the group I’m on about *@Patapouf*

The things I read and that are actually being encouraged, birthing a premature baby at home! Most likely that baby will need nicu or wait out an iugr pregnancy. As my baby was sga I’m on iugr support groups and Christ, it pisses me off that the danger of it is completely obscured from vulnerable women. It’s one of the first groups that come up when you type home birth into Fb too so it’s gets a lot of traffic

They are a bunch of fucking nutters. I'm glad there are other rational but silent member of the group because sometimes it makes me worry about the current generation of new mothers the sister group focussed on parenting is even more crackers but I do think there's a certain type of person who is more likely to post in and seek advice in a group like that...

I think our NHS needs a lot of funding and support so that women have better continuity of care and consent is sought for all interventions but I don't think the wholesale rejection of medical input is going to bring about any change. Give birth like a feminist is a really good book for anyone looking to make more informed decisions.

@Changechangychange

Yep. An ex friend decided to free birth, from listening to stuff like this about how she was “a goddess” and her body would instinctively know what to do etc. Went 6 weeks overdue. Baby clearly died at some point, though she insisted he was still kicking. Eventually became septic, and delivered a black rotten baby (I’m also friends with her sister, who was absolutely traumatised by seeing his body). Ended up having an emergency hysterectomy, almost died. All the fault of the doctors, of course, nothing to do with her refusing all obstetric care.

6 weeks overdue!

Those groups are full of you can’t be pregnant forever, you’ll give birth eventually. Well evidently not. I’m surprised she didn’t get septic before that point. I’ve read about phantom kicks and how the water sloshing around can still feel like movements.

I can’t get my head around 6 weeks overdue! Did she refuse all ante natal care from the beginning? I’m horrified reading this, your poor friend

Like earlier farming posters, I have seen sheep die in/after childbirth and it's not pretty. For heaven's sake, even my favourite cat - and her 7 kittens!! - would have died without urgent subcutaneous calcium administered by trained, very highly medically qualified, vet.

I can remember my mother - who would be getting on for 100 if she were still alive - talking quite fondly about old-style (early NHS) maternity care. Of course, there were not the life-saving medical devices/tests available (for which we should all be incredibly thankful) but for 'normal' births, the experience, she said, was a good one. Rather like a nursing home. And almost entirely female. Experienced midwives were in charge. (Of course some had nicer personalities/better patient skills than others, but they all had time to be with mothers.) Peace and quiet and privacy were seen as absolutely essential - no visitors, even husbands/partners for just a couple of hours per day. (If it's relevant - and I think it is - animals almost always seek a quiet and dark place to give birth.) Good food. Lots and lots of rest (this was said to help breast feeding. My mother would not even go into the room where favourite cat was feeding the kittens - she said that she needed peace. ) Babies were taken to a night nursery, staffed by trained midwives, so that mothers could sleep. Dim lights only in wards. Five days 'rest and recuperation' in maternity home were seen as totally standard.

Now, of course, a lot of this will sound utterly horrible to many people today, but - I think- we can see where it is coming from. The idea was to support mothers as much as possible.

I don't know - I genuinely don't know - but can we learn anything from this today?

Its not just birthing groups and imo is part of a wider problem of some social media accounts promoting DIY health as fact instead of a luxury belief.
They are in absolute denial of reality. Its like the woo crystals and essential oils craze of a few decades ago, but at least they never pretended it was safe for all women to free birth.

Oh my gosh you are definitely not being unreasonable. I work in NICU and have seen some babies come in to us in terrible conditions as a result of home births not supported by midwives. Few term babies with hypoxic brain injuries. Those groups should Deffo not be allowed.

Man they’d all be horrified with my births! The first was a general anaesthetic c section, the most medical you can get! (I wanted a natural water birth).
I think groups like those make women feel like they’ve failed some how, by simply needing medical intervention of any kind.

@Namechangetimes100 yep, didn’t even register with an obstetrician. She was in the US, and I suspect finances played a part, though she is very new age and anti vaxx, works as a Reiki practitioner etc, and insisted it was 100% a lifestyle choice (her parents offered to pay for obstetric care and she turned them down). Planned to meditate silently through labour in the Arizona desert etc. This was pre-Insta, but there was definitely an element of promoting her own brand as a spiritual healer going on. I genuinely don’t think she expected her son to die though.

It was fucking awful, it all played out over FB and tonnes of us were screaming at her to go and get medical attention (in real life), but she was just listening to people blowing smoke up her ass about what a wonderful mother goddess she was, and what an uplifting spiritual experience she was looking forward to. Absolutely horrific.

I’m on that one too @Patapouf, i think why it’s so concerning is that there are a large amount of women with social services involvement or quite severe mental health issues all of whom are being encouraged to not engage with ‘the system’. I’m often tempted to comment esp around iugr and the bonkers things I’ve read about premature hb but I know I’ll get machine gunned

@betwixtlives

the point I was making was that women are autonomous beings and it’s their CHOICE to take the risk of free birth if they choose to do so. It might logically be a monumentally stupid risk to take but that’s irrelevant. It’s her choice. Ideally all these women would have read lots of robust research and reviewed the evidence of safety (or not) before making the decision to free birth but even if they haven’t…that’s their choice. It’s their baby they’re risking and not anyone else’s business. Which is the way it should be

I completely disagree with this. The baby being born is not the possession of the mother. They have no more right to risk that baby than I have a right to put my already born children at risk.

@Campfirewood

Man they’d all be horrified with my births! The first was a general anaesthetic c section, the most medical you can get! (I wanted a natural water birth). I think groups like those make women feel like they’ve failed some how, by simply needing medical intervention of any kind.

A closed friend of mine is an obstetric horror story. Baby 1 - sepsis causing preterm labour at 25 weeks. Baby 2 - episiotomy and forceps. Baby 3 - full term stillbirth (placental abruption and crash c section). Baby 4 - elective c section booked in but but baby had other ideas and came early when her obstetrician was away at a conference so she had the on-call OBS/gyn instead.

When I was pregnant she firmly and kindly told be that the only thing that matters is that you walk out of hospital carrying a healthy baby. Anything else is just a bonus. It really helped me approach my labour with an open mind, and go with the flow, not get caught up in this obsessive idealised perfect birth idea.

@Franca123

I remember a woman in my NCT group saying, sheep give birth without help so why can't we? I just left that one as didn't even know where to start. Plus she looked terrified so I wondered if she was trying to convince herself not me.

That's hilarious - she has clearly never been a sheep farmer!

Sheep are the stupidest, most ornery creatures imaginable - they randomly kill or maim themselves at the drop of a fecking hat, and plenty of them die or have their lamb(s) die during the birthing process.

Jesus wept.

Women giving birth are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Hospital birth are often atrocious, due to poor staffing levels and downright stupid policies... How are women supposed to get any rest on your average postnatal ward? Who on hell ever thought leaving a woman who's just given birth in sole charge of her newborn for the next few nights would be a good idea?

Hospitals are inhumane environments. They feel like battery farms.
On the other hand, natural birth groups are downright cultish.

@Waitingfirgodot ethically I completely agree with you, but legally they have every right up until the baby is born.

Laws attempting to give the fetus “rights” are generally used to harass and imprison women who miscarry (plenty of cases in El Salvador and the US). So while I agree pregnant women have a moral responsibility to protect their unborn child, I wouldn’t want it written into law.

RobotValkyrie It was exactly this sort of experience that my post upthread was about. Seriously, do you think that there's any way in which we can get the NHS to adopt features of my late mother's woman-centred experience over 50 years ago? I honestly think that it would be a good idea. But how?

@RobotValkyrie I couldn't agree more. I was so so tired on the ward I was crying to go home, it felt like prison. I couldn't get any rest and because I was anxious the baby was too, so they didn't get any rest either. Post natal "care" just doesn't exist.

@RobotValkyrie spot on

But sadly what some (pro homebirth) midwives are promising women in the context of ambulances is factually incorrect and not something that they have any authority over.

@EgonSpengler2020 The problem there isn’t the women though - it’s another example of poor maternity care.

Women are being told, simultaneously, that they absolutely should listen to the professionals because they know best whilst equally being expected to ignore the ones giving wrong information…

@Changechangychange

Yep. An ex friend decided to free birth, from listening to stuff like this about how she was “a goddess” and her body would instinctively know what to do etc. Went 6 weeks overdue. Baby clearly died at some point, though she insisted he was still kicking. Eventually became septic, and delivered a black rotten baby (I’m also friends with her sister, who was absolutely traumatised by seeing his body). Ended up having an emergency hysterectomy, almost died. All the fault of the doctors, of course, nothing to do with her refusing all obstetric care.

Oh gosh, I think I know that family - in the Cotswolds? An awful, awful outcome.

I believe the mother attempted to pursue a claim against the obstetric team, they had to go through it all again and again until it was dropped. Heartbreaking for all concerned

YANBU. I've had two home births and they were fantastic but they were attended by two community midwives, the hospital was no more than 10 minutes drive away and they were my 3rd and 4th babies. A big part of my decision was because baby 2 was a fast (2hr labour) delivery.

There's always an element of risk but things did play out as anticipated with both home births being quick and uncomplicated.

Some of the scenarios mentioned in the thread seem very risky indeed. Home births (with midwives) are a nice to have if the odds are on your side and you have some idea of what to expect.

Unattended birthing is taking it way too far unless you happen to be one of those women who accidentally gives birth in 20 minutes flat on the bathroom floor or back of the car. Most women do not plan for that though!

@Namechangetimes100

I’m on that one too *@Patapouf*, i think why it’s so concerning is that there are a large amount of women with social services involvement or quite severe mental health issues all of whom are being encouraged to not engage with ‘the system’. I’m often tempted to comment esp around iugr and the bonkers things I’ve read about premature hb but I know I’ll get machine gunned

You may as well talk to a brick wall about any risk. I don't even bother engaging because I think I'll get booted out 😅 The posters and the admin don't want actual information and statistics on risk or practical advice on how to be assertive when you're in labour if you need medical intervention they just want affirmation and vindication of the choice to birth at home no matter what the risks or cost.

the ridiculousness of that persons statement is that most sheep can’t give birth without human assistance.

This is a modern phenomenon though, because of the way we've bred them. Iron age sheep breeds are much more able to self-birth.

@scottishnames

RobotValkyrie It was exactly this sort of experience that my post upthread was about. Seriously, do you think that there's any way in which we can get the NHS to adopt features of my late mother's woman-centred experience over 50 years ago? I honestly think that it would be a good idea. But how?

I remember my MIL talking about the 3 weeks she spent in a maternity home with each of her children (1960s). She was of the opinion it was far better that most women can go home quickly now.

I'm not sure though because it depends on what support a new mother has at home. Current hospitals are nothing like yesteryear maternity homes though and you couldn't really run them as such.

I don't know what the answer is. Going back to a maternity home set up (3 days to a weeks stay per woman) would require huge investment and infrastructure.

On top of that how many women would actually want it in reality now? In the 50s/60s life was simple enough to create a quiet environment and structured routines. Now there would be expectations of having a TV each, access to wifi, plugs for devices, visitors, take out food deliveries etc...so I can't see the peaceful atmosphere happening.

Women as a group I think are less compliant than our mothers or grandmothers (not a bad thing) so I just don't see 20/30/40 somethings taking to the idea of lengthy matron run mother and baby recuperation.

So I don't really know what the middle ground would look like if we were to go back to the drawing board for the 2020s.

I admin the group you are referring to.

Firstly - please leave my group because you are not welcome in it, the group and the birth stories in it are not there to feed your sense of drama.

We have stillbirth stories, in there, trauma stories in there, transfer stories in there during and after birth, alongside changed pathway before birth stories, premature birth stories in there and pph stories. You are lying in your suggestions we only have positive stories, that is the opposite ethos to how the group works, which is that every birth matters, wherever and however it takes place and all birth stories are welcome.

I am not going to discuss someones birth story - in a clearly identifiable way (it must be identifiable as a member has brought this to my attention and knows exactly who you are referring to as she could tell) on mumsnet.

When you joined the group you agreed to the rules, RESPECT FREEBIRTH is in the group questions, if you do not then you should never have joined - you confirmed you did before you were accepted, precisely because of the judgement thrown at freebirthing women a and people we have experienced in the past.

Rather than judging the group - perhaps you should look at your own motives in joining a group whose fundamental ethos you disagree with and then splashing a birth story, from a group that bans journalists, into Mumsnet, which is used as tabloid fodder on a regular basis, with no respect for the woman who has given birth (and in incredibly empowered way as it happens).

Where did that preemie birth you are referring to actually take place - in a hospital which negates your faux outrage.

I think maybe a more privacy and more individual care could be good starting points.

I was recommended to join the group @Patapouf mentioned too and my goodness I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thought the "doula" running it was... not the best person to be advising pregnant women, shall we say!
I decided against a home birth in the end, but that group was full of dangerous (and sometimes plain nuts) advice.