AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

@SamanthaDoula

I admin the group you are referring to.

Firstly - please leave my group because you are not welcome in it, the group and the birth stories in it are not there to feed your sense of drama.

We have stillbirth stories, in there, trauma stories in there, transfer stories in there during and after birth, alongside changed pathway before birth stories, premature birth stories in there and pph stories. You are lying in your suggestions we only have positive stories, that is the opposite ethos to how the group works, which is that every birth matters, wherever and however it takes place and all birth stories are welcome.

I am not going to discuss someones birth story - in a clearly identifiable way (it must be identifiable as a member has brought this to my attention and knows exactly who you are referring to as she could tell) on mumsnet.

When you joined the group you agreed to the rules, RESPECT FREEBIRTH is in the group questions, if you do not then you should never have joined - you confirmed you did before you were accepted, precisely because of the judgement thrown at freebirthing women a and people we have experienced in the past.

Rather than judging the group - perhaps you should look at your own motives in joining a group whose fundamental ethos you disagree with and then splashing a birth story, from a group that bans journalists, into Mumsnet, which is used as tabloid fodder on a regular basis, with no respect for the woman who has given birth (and in incredibly empowered way as it happens).

Where did that preemie birth you are referring to actually take place - in a hospital which negates your faux outrage.

🙊

My OP is about several HB groups, not one in specific although one does routinely have dangerous advice.

I’ve seen women question whether going into labour at 36 weeks means you should go in, most say no in these groups. Any doc would tell you that’s playing with fire.

Another who laboured at home for as long as possible with a prem baby to get transferred last min and the rest was a litany of risk taken by the mum.

Encouragement to avoid intervention in iugr too, that’s deadly.

I remember my MIL talking about the 3 weeks she spent in a maternity home with each of her children (1960s). She was of the opinion it was far better that most women can go home quickly now.

My Grandma gave birth in a maternity home, having stayed there for some time beforehand, during the war. However, she was away for weeks which caused problems at home.

My mother had the 2nd and 3rd at home in the 1960s. This was totally normal after the first as long as things were ok (number 4 was prem, so she went into hospital). Not long after, all women were expected to go into hospital, be processed (exam, shower, shave, antenatal clinics that gave shared appointments ) and there was backlash against this.

When I had mine, they were into Domicillary In and Out, where you had your baby in hospital and were discharged into the care of the community midwives instead of the postnatal ward. However, they cut down community midwife postnatal care in the early 2000s.

I had a rubbish time in hospital, as they would not listen to me about my fast births and I gave birth to twins, mostly unaided whilst the Registrar was in bed. Thankfully they were mostly self delivering. If I had another I would have gone for a home birth. Better to have midwives on the way than to give birth in the car on the way to the hospital.

The history of obstetric care in this country seems to be a continous fight between pushing every woman into an institutionalised system or pushing them back out into the community, with lots of cost cuttings in the process.

I am also a part of these groups and regularly mention to my OH just how dangerous the “advice” is.

They are completely cult like and should any mention of opposing views be made, you get shot down and vilified.

I am only still in the groups as I’m yet to have my baby and I have precipitous labours and so I’m having to plan for a homebirth as I have been advised I may not make it to hospital in time. I am there purely for practical advice on equipment etc.

I genuinely hate the tone set in these groups and the topics often make me feel very uncomfortable. I am totally with you OP and I’m glad I’m not the only one Who feels this way!

@SamanthaDoula

I admin the group you are referring to.

Firstly - please leave my group because you are not welcome in it, the group and the birth stories in it are not there to feed your sense of drama.

We have stillbirth stories, in there, trauma stories in there, transfer stories in there during and after birth, alongside changed pathway before birth stories, premature birth stories in there and pph stories. You are lying in your suggestions we only have positive stories, that is the opposite ethos to how the group works, which is that every birth matters, wherever and however it takes place and all birth stories are welcome.

I am not going to discuss someones birth story - in a clearly identifiable way (it must be identifiable as a member has brought this to my attention and knows exactly who you are referring to as she could tell) on mumsnet.

When you joined the group you agreed to the rules, RESPECT FREEBIRTH is in the group questions, if you do not then you should never have joined - you confirmed you did before you were accepted, precisely because of the judgement thrown at freebirthing women a and people we have experienced in the past.

Rather than judging the group - perhaps you should look at your own motives in joining a group whose fundamental ethos you disagree with and then splashing a birth story, from a group that bans journalists, into Mumsnet, which is used as tabloid fodder on a regular basis, with no respect for the woman who has given birth (and in incredibly empowered way as it happens).

Where did that preemie birth you are referring to actually take place - in a hospital which negates your faux outrage.

You might consider reading the posts on this thread because this isn't an echo chamber like your groups. The views expressed here are no less valid, are they?

@SamanthaDoula

I admin the group you are referring to.

Firstly - please leave my group because you are not welcome in it, the group and the birth stories in it are not there to feed your sense of drama.

We have stillbirth stories, in there, trauma stories in there, transfer stories in there during and after birth, alongside changed pathway before birth stories, premature birth stories in there and pph stories. You are lying in your suggestions we only have positive stories, that is the opposite ethos to how the group works, which is that every birth matters, wherever and however it takes place and all birth stories are welcome.

I am not going to discuss someones birth story - in a clearly identifiable way (it must be identifiable as a member has brought this to my attention and knows exactly who you are referring to as she could tell) on mumsnet.

When you joined the group you agreed to the rules, RESPECT FREEBIRTH is in the group questions, if you do not then you should never have joined - you confirmed you did before you were accepted, precisely because of the judgement thrown at freebirthing women a and people we have experienced in the past.

Rather than judging the group - perhaps you should look at your own motives in joining a group whose fundamental ethos you disagree with and then splashing a birth story, from a group that bans journalists, into Mumsnet, which is used as tabloid fodder on a regular basis, with no respect for the woman who has given birth (and in incredibly empowered way as it happens).

Where did that preemie birth you are referring to actually take place - in a hospital which negates your faux outrage.

It’s on your publicly accessible Facebook page with all identifying details including the woman’s name. I’m not even on Facebook and could read it… so maybe instead of berating the OP for sharing a vague story, you need to look at your own sharing of far more identifying personal information.

The story you shared also clearly shows the mother was advised to go in to hospital in premature Labour and declined until the last moment. It has a big list of “highlights” at the beginning including all the medically indicated monitoring and treatments that were declined.

That baby survived because the medical staff saved it. It survived in spite of, rather than because of, your unregulated “advice”.

With all due respect @SamanthaDoula, if you are admin to this group then you should be taking the concerns of you users seriously and using your role to protect and support women and babies. These posters obviously joined these groups for a reason. You could try to win them over and get others to understand your ethos instead of acting so defensive.

@SamanthaDoula

I admin the group you are referring to.

Firstly - please leave my group because you are not welcome in it, the group and the birth stories in it are not there to feed your sense of drama.

We have stillbirth stories, in there, trauma stories in there, transfer stories in there during and after birth, alongside changed pathway before birth stories, premature birth stories in there and pph stories. You are lying in your suggestions we only have positive stories, that is the opposite ethos to how the group works, which is that every birth matters, wherever and however it takes place and all birth stories are welcome.

I am not going to discuss someones birth story - in a clearly identifiable way (it must be identifiable as a member has brought this to my attention and knows exactly who you are referring to as she could tell) on mumsnet.

When you joined the group you agreed to the rules, RESPECT FREEBIRTH is in the group questions, if you do not then you should never have joined - you confirmed you did before you were accepted, precisely because of the judgement thrown at freebirthing women a and people we have experienced in the past.

Rather than judging the group - perhaps you should look at your own motives in joining a group whose fundamental ethos you disagree with and then splashing a birth story, from a group that bans journalists, into Mumsnet, which is used as tabloid fodder on a regular basis, with no respect for the woman who has given birth (and in incredibly empowered way as it happens).

Where did that preemie birth you are referring to actually take place - in a hospital which negates your faux outrage.

I think you're admin of the group is appalling and reckless. I think allowed unqualified medical advice and advocates of freebirth you are directly respinsible for any horror stories that may occur. Shame on you.

Oh dear @SamanthaDoula this really isn't going to go your way. Facebook rules aren't legally binding by the way so your echo chamber members are free to question your group ethos whenever and wherever they choose.

You might consider reading the posts on this thread because this isn't an echo chamber like your groups. The views expressed here are no less valid, are they?

If I joined a group which stated as part of its remit that belief in the flying spaghetti monster was something I signed up to then I wouldn't join the group. Nor would I join it, thereby lying and the complain on a completely different forum that a random group elsewhere promotes belief in the flying spaghetti monster.

I might generate a lot of personally gratifying echoes and reaction from the other forum but it wouldn't get a damned thing changed.

If you believe a group is giving medically dangerous advice then the people to take it up with are the platform owners if its in contravention of their guidelines. Everything else you do is just noise.

For anyone who thinks doulas have some sort of medical training, I have a surprise. You, too, could become a doula! For only £1000 (discounts and payment plans available) you could take a four day Zoom course covering:

• Human microbiome [no, I don’t know what this means in this context]
• Supporting women in labour
• “Risk” [ quotes not mine]
• Obstetric scenarios
• Intervention
• Birth physiology
• Active listening
• How to set up a doula business
• A history of childbirth
• Human rights in childbirth
• SEO training
• Active listening [listed twice so, err, we know it’s covered. I hope the listening is better than the proofreading.]
• 6 human needs
• Changing your relationship with money to build a business
• Freebirth
• Post natal care

Four days. Four days. Over Zoom. And that includes setting up your business and the all-important SEO to bring in the punters. Then you have to attend five births with a mentor, after which you are a certified doula. But actually, doula is not a protected term in the UK so you don’t even need the certificate.

Compare and contrast with the three years it takes to train as a midwife.

I am not making this up. I wish I were.

I hold the NHS partially responsible. The lack of midwives for home births currently, ill informed and often judgemental medical staff. If the NHS supported woman better thalen they wouldn't end up pushing desperate woman towards these fringe groups.

I had a terrible traumatic time at a midwife unit due to negligent midwives. Rather than blame these woman the NHS needs to provide better than the crap it is currently. I do not advocate pre-term labour alone, going weeks over due or even giving birth without a midwife but I do believe the NHS needs to do better to support women. For starters treating women as people not statistics and textbooks and providing support to woman both during and after labour.

I had a home birth for my second, after the worst hospital experience with my first. I had always been very anti home birth but it’s amazing how you learn and change your mind when you actually read about it and learn the statistics. I’m
Planning one for my third as it was the best experience BUT I haven’t been on these groups. They would annoy me too much. Home birth only works with 2 midwives there, with a textbook healthy pregnancy at full term and having had all the relevant scans and check ups. Otherwise it’s so fucking dangerous. I don’t love how medicalised birth is but it’s understandable given that the desired outcome is a healthy baby and there can be so many problems!

Agreeing not to judge someone's decision to freebirth is not quite the same as agreeing that it's ok to encourage vulnerable women with high risk pregnancies to freebirth against medical advice.

@EgonSpengler2020 it’s terrifying isn’t it?

YANBU - just that really.
I agree it is a personal choice but it does seem that there is a lack of common sense on these home birth sites

I had some poor advice from a doula, after several weeks of having the natural method in hypnobirth course. I was scared of surgery and pain so clung to the hypnobirth natural way etc.
Anyway, I delayed my induction by 48 hours. I got an infection. My baby has all the signs of cerebral palsy now.
It makes me angry it's not regulated as if I had been under NHS care or doula I would likely have made a different decision.

Worst decision of my life. Trust the professionals. Wish I had.

Women giving birth are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Hospital birth are often atrocious, due to poor staffing levels and downright stupid policies... How are women supposed to get any rest on your average postnatal ward? Who on hell ever thought leaving a woman who's just given birth in sole charge of her newborn for the next few nights would be a good idea?

I really agree with this. Free birthing seems like an insane risk to me, as does home birthing in certain circumstances (eg with a breech baby). But I really, really can see why some women don’t trust NHS maternity care or lose faith in it along the way.

I know someone that is pregnant and she said that home births are recommended these days, she’s refused so many important things during this pregnancy. The covid vaccine too but that’s another story ….

So she’s planning to have her baby at home, doesn’t listen to the midwives or her consultant - She’s high risk.

I can’t believe that she’s like this honestly.

She has other children and never had these views so I think covid has a lot to answer for. By that I mean people are so used to not getting the usual medical system and doing things if and when that it’s made them think that they can’t trust the NHS and government so won’t trust them with their births?
I dunno if that’s true but they don’t seem to have much trust in anything medical, I dunno if it’s the vaccine or how things have been but seems the same time frame.

I gave birth to my daughter at home. I was on my own. Well apart from my then 3 year old. Got the normal pains you get in early labour thought I had ages. Next thing it suddenly got really painful. I called 999 and they were on their way. I gave Borth to baby's head. And the paramedics walked in as she was born. It was unplanned but the best birth ever.

2nd home birth want smoothly midwife was there and my friend it was just a standard birth really.

3rd home birth. Was quite funny . Well i thought so anyway. Partner was shitting
himself because I was having a home birth (first one he had seen) so when it got a bit painful he called the midwife. No answer. He tried several times for about 20 mins. So then he called maternity ward. I don't know what was said . But he was shitting a brick. He told me I need to go hospital. I told him no its fine . Stop panicking. He says your gonna give fucking birth . I said yeah don't worry. He was flicking all through the maternity book calling his adult daughter to come over . He tried midwife again. In the end he was advised to call an ambulance. So they turned up. Said about going hospital. I said no . Partner said you need to go. Paramedic said no she's not having it she wants to stay. midwife turned up and I gave birth few mins after she got here .

I did give birth in hospital and it was the worst ever. I felt like a lump of meat. In a factory.

I think all people on the freebirth sites should have to look at videos like these. Yes, it's 'only' popular history, and without citing sources - but on the whole it repeats what's generally proved and known. I suspect that all these poor past women would have loved to have had medical help, however unsympathetic the practitioners or far-from-ideal the conditions.

I have a medical condition that means letting your pregnancy go beyond 38/39 weeks is dangerous. Induction and elective section are generally the options unless you go into labour prior to the 38/39 week mark. I am part of a pregnancy group for women with this condition and recently I've noticed a lot of women telling other women to ignore the well researched medical advice to give birth at around 38 weeks, 39 if there are no problems and agree to a lot of monitoring for that final week, and instead insist on being allowed to go into labour naturally.

Recently one woman followed this advice, refused induction, and very sadly had a still birth at 41 weeks. Dangerous advice, like the advice this woman was applauded for following, kills. Barely a word from those advising to ignore medical advice when she posted about her loss.

I'm not one for following advice blindly as I questioned and ended up refusing steroids prior to my elective section at 37 weeks. I asked on here and on Facebook groups for others experiences but ultimately made my decision after a discussion with my consultant and following his advice. If medical professionals were more willing to have a discussion with their patients then I think there would be more confidence in their advice. No one wants to be told what to do but if risks v reward is discussed then better decisions are made.

@Changechangychange

WHAT?!

@JustLyra - I totally agree with you based on so many friends’ experiences. Best thing I ever did was HB and 2 and 3 with independent midwives - best money I ever spent. The state of maternity care is shocking as is the dismissive attitude and contradictory advice of so many HCPs. I have issues with free birthing but not sure what I would do if HB not an option.

@Goldilocks99 💐