AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

@batmanladybird

Are these American groups??

Slightly off topic but after reading up on safe sleep before DD was born I was slightly shocked by how many American Instagrammers seem to have their new born sleeping in a sea of cuddly toys, cot bumpers, duvets etc

@Franca123

I remember a woman in my NCT group saying, sheep give birth without help so why can't we? I just left that one as didn't even know where to start. Plus she looked terrified so I wondered if she was trying to convince herself not me.

@Franca123 you can let her know sheep don't give birth alone. I'm cattle myself but often hear neighbours saying "lambed 4" last night. We are present for anytime a cow is calving and have her in our "maternity" shed for a few days before. And if it gets dangerous/ risky we call out the vet.

I think too much ideology and not enough nuance is always a bad combo

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

I completely agree but I do think that the widespread hostility to homebirths really doesn't help (read some of the MN threads on the topic - there will always be lots of posters who insist that anyone having one under any circumstances is a selfish, naive person who is endangering their baby, and an implausible tonne of people who insist they would have died if they'd had a homebirth) - it pushes people into more extreme spaces.

Yup and if they end up choosing to deliver in hospital it was only from coercion and bullying!

For what it's worth I'm very pro home birthing! And hoping come March there will be no restrictions and all remains well in my pregnancy to have one. I agree with many posters that there are problems with the system, and my experience with DC1 definitely made me look into home birthing with DC2 and I'm so glad I did. But some women on these groups are extremely vulnerable it's dangerous.

@betwixtlives

What’s the alternative though? Shutting down these groups and not allowing women to talk to each other?

Great. Same could be said for eating disorder groups, where tips will be given to loose more and more weight. All medically dangerous advice given by unqualified people.

Every group that advocates dangerous medical advice should be shut down.

@Comedycook

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

No stress about getting to hospital (as I was only driver at that time) No stress about toddler child care Own midwife, not shared with other women in labour Own bed afterwards Quieter No danger of giving birth at the side of a country lane alone Not having to travel on country lanes in labour

Its an individual thing.

[quote elbea]@Franca123 the ridiculousness of that persons statement is that most sheep can’t give birth without human assistance[/quote]
I've watched enough 'This Farming Life' to know that!

There is a really toxic side to free birthing and home birthing, an extreme opposition to medical or factual information. It's a horrendous combination of extreme arrogance, "internet research", and wanting your perfect birth above all else, including the welfare of the baby. I had an extremely tough and traumatic birth, my baby had a traumatic birth injury & spent time in the NICU. Having a home birth when all is good and fine is great but the idea of throwing two fingers to medical professionals because of what you read on an internet echo chamber and "women have done it for centuries on their own" is idiotic. Know what else women and their babies did for centuries on their own? Died.

@Comedycook

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

For me, I live about 10/15 mins from hospital could probably get there quicker if blue lighted (provided no ridiculous wait for an ambulance), so I knew I could get there fast if anything did go south. But the main motives was environment, we don’t have childcare for our eldest so I ended up giving birth without DH, and I had an induction with my first and it was quite coercive and the stay on the mat ward was atrocious, so I wanted to avoid that. BUT I ended up with a v positive MLU birth and same day discharge. Doubt I’d have more kids but I’d happily do MLU again now

Free births and home births are completely different things. Your title is quite misleading in that respect.

If a home birth group has been taken over by free birthers then its an issue to take up with that group or possibly the host if they have standards around dangerous medical advice.

At least you had the option of an MLU OP. Where I live it’s normal maternity unit in large teaching hospital with tiny, clinical rooms or home birth. After a hideous first birth in hospital I was booked for home birth with MW blessing. Unfortunately things became a little more risky so ended up in hospital again. I was bullied by the first MW who luckily went off shift before DC was born. Although not a choice I would make I can see why women would want to avoid a miserable birth in a huge impersonal delivery unit.

@CrazyOldBagLady

I think so many women have had awful births where they haven't been given good advice, they have been coerced or had decision making power taken away from them. Informed consent seems to be quite far down the list of priorities of a lot of maternity care staff in NHS hospitals. This sort of group is the consequence of that. There are people out there giving good and balanced advice too but the NHS seem to not want anyone to deviate from their process or question what is happening to them or seek another route.

As any online space you will get the moderate and sensible and also the extreme and irrational types of people.

This. When you've experienced this kind of 'care' and you've experienced having lack of consent argued with and/or completely ignored you lose all faith in the NHS system.

@C8H10N4O2

Free births and home births are completely different things. Your title is quite misleading in that respect.

If a home birth group has been taken over by free birthers then its an issue to take up with that group or possibly the host if they have standards around dangerous medical advice.

It’s not been taken over by them, that’s the tone of the group, home Birth above all else, even if it means free birth.

My primary issue is the encouragement to ignore medical advice and have a home birth in exceptionally dangerous circumstances iugr, breech, lga baby, prematurity. I don’t think the title is misleading, these people still had home births and were encouraged to do so and to threaten to free birth if the hospital don’t comply with their wishes

[quote Namechangetimes100]@DollyDingleberry I’m sorry you went through that! I think the tone in those groups and the ‘it’s normal Hun, just feed feed feed’ message is incredibly damaging. I was so bad with it too, my daughter had a tongue tie that reattached and was slow gaining weight for a while and I couldn’t bring myself to pick up and put a tin of formula in trolley or pay for it at checkout because it felt like such failure. Dh had to go back around the supermarket when we were done to get it. So ridiculous looking back x[/quote]
I was the exact same for the first couple of months of formula feeding! I then started going to a mum and baby group locally and found that actually, loads of people were formula feeding/ combi feeding for all sorts of reasons and I wasn't a terrible mother afterall!

I think the most damaging thing for me was being told it was physically impossible for a woman not to be able to feed her baby and only ever as a result of very rare diseases, this was trotted out all the time - it made me feel like i was the worst woman in the world or maybe not even a woman despite the fact I'd just grown an entire human in my body and then given birth to him from my very womanly vagina

Those first few weeks are enough of a headfuck without any of the additional nonsense!

@Letsallscreamatthesistene I wouldn't go as far to compare a home birth group to an eating disorder group, as that makes it sound like all home births are dangerous and against medical advice. It's more like a weight loss group which sometimes shows poor and dangerous dieting advice. The problem is that the admins/group leaders are happy to allow the poor advice but there don't seem to be any groups that aren't this way in some shape or form. If you are an individual of sound mind then you can see past those posts and take away the good stuff, but if not then that's where there's a problem.

@GougeAway

At least you had the option of an MLU OP. Where I live it’s normal maternity unit in large teaching hospital with tiny, clinical rooms or home birth. After a hideous first birth in hospital I was booked for home birth with MW blessing. Unfortunately things became a little more risky so ended up in hospital again. I was bullied by the first MW who luckily went off shift before DC was born. Although not a choice I would make I can see why women would want to avoid a miserable birth in a huge impersonal delivery unit.

Oh yeah I can totally see the appeal of a home birth, heck I wanted one myself due to a similar experience to yourself with my first but it wouldn’t be in instances of premature labour, or iugr or breech, that’s an unnecessary risk

May I as a doctor point out that, globally, 800 women die every day from the complications of pregnancy and labour.
That's the equivalent of two fully laden jumbo jets crashing daily.
The reason the UK contributes very few deaths to these shocking statistics is because most mothers have the sense to listen to their obstetricians and give birth in a properly equipped and staffed labour ward.
And as a side issue, some of the pregnant women who did die in the UK last year were unvaccinated and died of Covid.
I wish patients would realise doctors are entirely motivated by patient safety and evidence based medicine. And listen to us instead of their hippy woo friends on Tiktok.

@Comedycook

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

One-to-one midwife care for starters. Cleanliness for seconds (my local hospital has a terrible and not unfounded reputation).

The hospital birth before my HB was in a hospital so poorly staffed that my DH watched the head come out and prepared to deliver the rest of her while my MIL ran around trying to find a member off staff.
This was 20 minutes after I’d been fobbed off my an uninterested (likely through exhaustion) midwife who was convinced because of her experience I had hours to go and ignored my experience of my body.
The after care was non existent. The food horrendous. The 24 hour bright lights left me sleep deprived.The showers minging. And the staffs scarce, tired and ratty.

My HB was in a clean and relaxed environment. I had one-to-one care until shortly before birth then a second midwife for the birth. The food was good, the aftercare great (both from DH and the community care team). And I actually got sleep.
Also if there had been an emergency there was a mw with me - unlike in the hospital.

Also shockingly bad medical help with things like tongue ties add to the existence of the feeling that medical staff don’t listen and don’t know their stuff.

These groups aren’t the problem. The poor quality maternity care allowing them to flourish is the problem.

I've had 2 home births and have had similar experience of FB home birth groups. It wasn't for me so I left the group fairly quickly. Some people on there, seemed to me, no less bonkers than the anti vaxxers... but people are entitled to their choices. s
Some seemingly very dangerous advice from unqualified people that honestly think it is the best for mum and baby. I don't think anything can be done about these types of group tbh. It is quite scary though.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of dumb advice on all sorts of pregnancy groups. I've been a member of several home birth groups. I had all my babies at home. For me, it was a very positive experience and I really appreciated the support of being able to talk with people who were asking the same questions as I was and trying to figure out what was the right path for me. That said, no one should be so foolish as to seek medical advice from some random on Facebook. If people do that, it's not the group itself that's dangerous, it's people's lack of good sense and critical thinking skills.

But I don't think this is related to home birth specifically. There is lots of terrible advice on the internet, including on general pregnancy and birth groups, and people have traumatic, dangerous experiences in hospital as well. Birth at home is not necessarily more dangerous than birth in a hospital, but birth without proper support and clinical guidance is.

@irishfarmer your post had me stumped until. I noticed your name! 'I'm cattle' had a different meaning to me

Via colleagues I am aware of a case within my health board where the mother wanted a home birth (during lockdown, so who can blame her). Midwives did a risk assessment of the property and were not happy with the access, so they asked the ambulance service to risk assess. Ambulance officer took an ambulance out and concluded that there was no way an ambulance was getting anywhere near the property. Midwives therefore advised strongly against homebirth but Mother still decided to go ahead.

Unfortunately, it all started to go wrong for both mum and baby, and apparently the whole situation became a very high stakes cluster f*CK.

Baby is reaching the age now where parents will find out how bad their decision truely was.

I think midwifery lead units attached to a full obstetrics/NICU unit are brilliant and if you are lucky enough to have one available to you, you would be crazy not to use it. I unfortunately had minor complications which meant I was on labour ward not MLU