AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

[quote Orarewedancer]@Letsallscreamatthesistene I wouldn't go as far to compare a home birth group to an eating disorder group, as that makes it sound like all home births are dangerous and against medical advice. It's more like a weight loss group which sometimes shows poor and dangerous dieting advice. The problem is that the admins/group leaders are happy to allow the poor advice but there don't seem to be any groups that aren't this way in some shape or form. If you are an individual of sound mind then you can see past those posts and take away the good stuff, but if not then that's where there's a problem.[/quote]
Im not comparing home birthing groups to eating disorder groups.

Im drawing a comparison between the medically unsound and dangerous advice given in each group.

So, as I said, any group allowing unsafe, dangerous medical advice should be shurt down.

I will always shout at people who say "your body won't grow a baby it can't birth" because it is nonsense. My second was 4.8kg (no gestational diabetes or pre eclampsia), got stuck, wouldn't move, no natural contractions after 10 days overdue, had to be pumped full of pictocin for my body to try to birth her. I was in labour for 16 hours and there was a moment where I didn't think she or I would make it. If I had been at home and refused care I'm not sure we would be alive today. Your body can and does play tricks on you.

I'm all for giving women information and the freedom of choice but not in spite of informed medical advice.

This is terrifying but I wonder if this is in part a response to the way medical professionals, especially around pregnancy and birth, try to force decisions (often where they are other reasonable options medically) onto patients and patients feel not listened to and/or feeling like they have to aggressively advocate for an option that should be available to them.

Women want to feel in control of the health and birth experience and this sounds like a way of taking back that control or doing it all yourself! Very dangerous though as historically unassisted childbirth has a very high mortality rate.

I've been seeing more and more of these! Including people saying "they have to send someone", well you might get a totally unqualified ambulance crew who have never seen a birth.. my DH is a paramedic who recently went to someone who stayed at home for a home birth- luckily it was the 5th baby he had delivered so he was one or the most experienced ones on shift that day! If something went wrong he would have had no idea what to do

@Comedycook

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

I thought the same !!! With my DD I wasn't believed I was in labour they kept telling me to take deep breaths , and take a warm bath it got to to the point I was getting urges to push but I was so frightened I didn't want to. Finally got the hospital I had to walk into the ward as the midwives didn't believe me so no wheelchair and I felt like death warmed up . , I finally got examined and was 10cm DD came flying out 20 mins later . There was no benefit for me being in hospital just discomfort when I had done most of the labouring at home already. I will have a home birth if I have a second baby.

@RavingAnnie But why on Earth would I want to ‘take back control’ from medical professionals who have years of training, specialist knowledge and expertise?

Yes, doctors and midwives should of course be able to communicate clearly to patients, and treat patients as humans. But this can tip over into some people assuming they know better than the experts, partly due to misinformation or biased info on home birth sites.

An NCT friend sent a photo of her 43 year old friend who had had her first baby at home. It was a breech birth. Thankfully all ended well. My friend was saying "it's so amazing, they would have forced her to have a C Section if she'd have gone to hospital". We were all expected to clap and cheer. I thought the whole thing was borderline negligent, to have a breech birth at home with your first child, esp. when you have no idea how your body will cope with childbirth. (I was sure I'd cope well with labour & childbirth but my body disagreed).

@CaMePlaitPas

I will always shout at people who say "your body won't grow a baby it can't birth" because it is nonsense. My second was 4.8kg (no gestational diabetes or pre eclampsia), got stuck, wouldn't move, no natural contractions after 10 days overdue, had to be pumped full of pictocin for my body to try to birth her. I was in labour for 16 hours and there was a moment where I didn't think she or I would make it. If I had been at home and refused care I'm not sure we would be alive today. Your body can and does play tricks on you.

I'm all for giving women information and the freedom of choice but not in spite of informed medical advice.

I had the exact same. 5.2kg baby, 2kg placenta, five days over, 18hr labour & baby got stuck. No diabetes or pre eclampsia and first baby so no previous birth to estimate size. Baby measured around 8lbs the week before. Had I not been in a delivery suite, one or both of us wouldn't have made it.

[quote HerculesMulligann]@RavingAnnie But why on Earth would I want to ‘take back control’ from medical professionals who have years of training, specialist knowledge and expertise?

Yes, doctors and midwives should of course be able to communicate clearly to patients, and treat patients as humans. But this can tip over into some people assuming they know better than the experts, partly due to misinformation or biased info on home birth sites.[/quote]
As I said in my post because medical professionals do not prioritise informed consent or seem to even like informed patients. And decisions are often pushed into patients when there are over options or that decision is not right for that patient. ELCS are a good example of this. Women are having to fight and fight fir options that should just be available to them.

I have been chronically ill for 6/7 years and have experienced the same treatment. I've been given wrong information and advice by med profs, twice that could have resulted in poor health outcomes, possibly death had I not done my own research and advocated for myself. I've had medical opinions pushed into he when other options were available. I've dealt with this by researching, advocating and ultimately seeking private treatment from well researched doctors. However what I am saying in my post if I wonder if the type of treatment by Ned profs that I have experienced and I know women experience around pregnancy and childbirth is partly the reason women are looking to free birth to take back some control of their own health.

I'm not saying it's a good idea. It's not. I think it's incredibly dangerous. However it could be a partial explanation of the cause. If people felt more involved and listened to and central ti their own healthcare maybe they wouldn't be taking it upon themselves to effectively DIY it.

First time mum and medic here and I am finding a lot of these groups terrifying, there seems to be a real pack mentality and you get shot down if you try to be rational at all.
FWIW all of my medic friends who have done either an O&G job or a NICU job have chosen to give birth in our local hospital. The NICU team are one emergency bleep away through a set of double doors, the alternative is a MLU with a 40+ minute transfer time (also taking into account how stretched the ambulance service is at the moment so you may be waiting for an ambulance- terrifying!).

Our trust have also said for the last few weeks that they are unable to facilitate home births or births in the MLU due to staffing issues so I can predict a rise in free births.

@RavingAnnie But why on Earth would I want to ‘take back control’ from medical professionals who have years of training, specialist knowledge and expertise?**@HerculesMulligann because they often treat you really badly as a pregnant, birthing or postnatal woman. I can really see why people are responding in this way.

@Goldi321

First time mum and medic here and I am finding a lot of these groups terrifying, there seems to be a real pack mentality and you get shot down if you try to be rational at all. FWIW all of my medic friends who have done either an O&G job or a NICU job have chosen to give birth in our local hospital. The NICU team are one emergency bleep away through a set of double doors, the alternative is a MLU with a 40+ minute transfer time (also taking into account how stretched the ambulance service is at the moment so you may be waiting for an ambulance- terrifying!). Our trust have also said for the last few weeks that they are unable to facilitate home births or births in the MLU due to staffing issues so I can predict a rise in free births.

Agree, I got shouted down at the positive birthing group for explaining the reality of the call coding/prioritising system in the ambulance service, and the reality of ambulance availability due to hospital delays (and this was pre covid). They would just keep saying "but the midwife said..." and believe that over the word of a paramedic with over a decades experience.

Amen OP!

Some of these groups are frequented by quite vulnerable women with learning difficulties or social care involvement and I'm horrified by the cult like bleating on about free birth and how doctors know nothing. Im intrigued by the motives of a woman who is adamant on having a home birth to the detriment of her health or that of the baby.

I'm totally in favour of home birth for low risk pregnancies that can be attended by appropriate midwives and supported properly. Women should have this option open to them when there isn't a high risk of them needing a hospital transfer.

Telling a woman on her 8th child who has refused scans and monitoring during pregnancy because she's agoraphobic to carry on and free birth if necessary or saying that the hospital 'have to send someone' is dangerously irresponsible.

There's one particular group that gives me the major rage that's run by a charlatan doula who is always posting with her begging bowl for donations and one day she's going to be responsible for the death of a mother or baby with her cavalier attitude towards the advice of medical professionals.

They would just keep saying "but the midwife said..." and believe that over the word of a paramedic with over a decades experience.

They’re not taking the word of a midwife of a paramedic though - they’re taking the word of the midwife they’re entrusting with their care (and are being implored on this thread to do so) over the word of a person on a group… that’s exactly what this thread is saying people should do.

The problem there isn’t the pregnant women, it is - once again - poor quality maternity care.

the point I was making was that women are autonomous beings and it’s their CHOICE to take the risk of free birth if they choose to do so. It might logically be a monumentally stupid risk to take but that’s irrelevant. It’s her choice. Ideally all these women would have read lots of robust research and reviewed the evidence of safety (or not) before making the decision to free birth but even if they haven’t…that’s their choice. It’s their baby they’re risking and not anyone else’s business. Which is the way it should be

@sjxoxo

..if you broke your leg would you expect different info and messages from each team you saw- paramedics, doctors, consultants, surgical team..? I wouldn’t and i don’t understand why the advice and narrative around birth is not more coherent and consistent x

Most legs are the same. Every woman's physiology, baby and pregnancy is different and different clinicians will have different experiences and methods and judgements on risks. A broken leg is relatively straightforward.

Jesus Christ

The Facebook madness doesn't end with birth. Breastfeeding groups are rife with "chestfeeding" and "birthing bodies" nonsense that gets you banned if you question it.

I think some of us felt a bit lost when trying to make our choices though. Hospital drs who strongly discouraged us from a homebirth but wouldn’t ‘let’ us choose an ELCS, citing inaccurate and bias stats, who said ‘we will book you in for an induction on this date.’ as an order not a question. Then NCT leaders who wouldn’t even discuss the possibilities of intervention in birth, homebirth Facebook groups with completely anti-doctor anti-medicine mentalities.
I just wanted some clear, non-bias information that counted me as an individual person.

That’s actually the group I’m on about @Patapouf

The things I read and that are actually being encouraged, birthing a premature baby at home! Most likely that baby will need nicu or wait out an iugr pregnancy. As my baby was sga I’m on iugr support groups and Christ, it pisses me off that the danger of it is completely obscured from vulnerable women. It’s one of the first groups that come up when you type home birth into Fb too so it’s gets a lot of traffic

@Patapouf

Amen OP!

Some of these groups are frequented by quite vulnerable women with learning difficulties or social care involvement and I'm horrified by the cult like bleating on about free birth and how doctors know nothing. Im intrigued by the motives of a woman who is adamant on having a home birth to the detriment of her health or that of the baby.

I'm totally in favour of home birth for low risk pregnancies that can be attended by appropriate midwives and supported properly. Women should have this option open to them when there isn't a high risk of them needing a hospital transfer.

Telling a woman on her 8th child who has refused scans and monitoring during pregnancy because she's agoraphobic to carry on and free birth if necessary or saying that the hospital 'have to send someone' is dangerously irresponsible.

There's one particular group that gives me the major rage that's run by a charlatan doula who is always posting with her begging bowl for donations and one day she's going to be responsible for the death of a mother or baby with her cavalier attitude towards the advice of medical professionals.

I am definitely part of the same groups you are and know which one you are referring to at the end... I really feel for the HCPs responsible for some of these women, it would keep me up at night.

@EishetChayil

The Facebook madness doesn't end with birth. Breastfeeding groups are rife with "chestfeeding" and "birthing bodies" nonsense that gets you banned if you question it.

Wtf is chestfeeding

Yep. An ex friend decided to free birth, from listening to stuff like this about how she was “a goddess” and her body would instinctively know what to do etc. Went 6 weeks overdue. Baby clearly died at some point, though she insisted he was still kicking. Eventually became septic, and delivered a black rotten baby (I’m also friends with her sister, who was absolutely traumatised by seeing his body). Ended up having an emergency hysterectomy, almost died. All the fault of the doctors, of course, nothing to do with her refusing all obstetric care.

I agree with your op. But I also agree that a lot of people (including on this thread!) have a huge fear and misunderstanding of home births. Actually a home birth is often the best thing for a mother and baby. Even hospitals midwives will tell you that. Free births are something else…

@JustLyra

They would just keep saying "but the midwife said..." and believe that over the word of a paramedic with over a decades experience.

They’re not taking the word of a midwife of a paramedic though - they’re taking the word of the midwife they’re entrusting with their care (and are being implored on this thread to do so) over the word of a person on a group… that’s exactly what this thread is saying people should do.

The problem there isn’t the pregnant women, it is - once again - poor quality maternity care.

But sadly what some (pro homebirth) midwives are promising women in the context of ambulances is factually incorrect and not something that they have any authority over.