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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

513 replies

Namechangetimes100 · 05/01/2022 14:51

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

OP posts:
Jemily04 · 11/01/2022 23:25

Hmmm. I don't know why any of you lot are even in this FB group, there seems to be some kind of agenda going on as the experience I've had of being a member is far removed from the diatribe you are spouting.

I've had a tremendous amount of support through both of my pregnancies from Samantha, the doula you are sounding off about. I was induced at 39 weeks with my first and her advice and support was invaluable for making that a positive experience even though I was as terrified and facing a highly medicalised birth. I had many interventions and tests, all of which I received her advice and help with when posting publicly and messaging her privately.

I had my second at home and again her support was invaluable. Both of my full birth stories are in there , induction and home birth, neither is more important/relevent than the other. The group is a fabulous resource for birthing women to gain knowledge and insight into making choices for themselves. As I know firsthand, Samantha is a doula who supports a woman's right to choose how she wishes to birth. If you don't understand that, you obviously are only seeing what you want to see

Lifeisnteasy · 12/01/2022 00:04

[quote AliceAll]@Lifeisnteasy "What do you think would happen if home birth became the norm among high risk or first time mothers?"

For FTMs I would expect to see a massive drop in emergency Caesareans (I think the rate is around 15% when it ought to be around 3%), episiotomies and bad tears, postpartum haemorrhage, birth trauma, postpartum depression, and birth complications leading to women being classified as high-risk for all future pregnancies. According to Birthplace cost analysis, increasing homebirths would save the NHS loads of money. I'd also expect to see a massive increase in babies being born vaginally, being breastfed and a reduction in babies being born instrumentally, admitted to neonatal units, and exposed to antibiotics in early life. All of which would then result in reduced infant mortality and morbidity, reduced hospitalisation for infection, reduced allergies/asthma and may even result in health benefits lasting into adulthood. As a trade off for this there may be a slight increase in perinatal mortality - although further research is needed into why this is only seen in one uk study and not replicated in other similar health systems and whether it would still be the case were homebirth for FTMs to be normalised and not-treated as inherently risky.

In the case specifically of high-risk pregnancies it's not as clear cut - the Birthplace further analyses surprisingly found that homebirth significantly reduced serious harm to the baby for high risk pregnancy. These results are difficult to interpret - they didn't have enough data to separate out the many types of high-risk so there are a lot of confounding variables although they tried to account for these. When they looked only at the most serious outcomes, home was slightly higher than hospital but this was insignificant, whereas overall home was safer for the baby. I'm not sure how much weight you can place on this but it definitely implies that we should be much more individualised and open-minded about what is actually high-risk and what is increased risk but not necessarily prohibitively high-risk.

For example borderline low iron is enough to classify someone as high risk and they are recommended not to birth at home when moderately low iron does not increase the risk of PPH, does not increase the risk to the baby, and only increases the chance that you will need a transfusion if you have a PPH. Given homebirth is known to reduce the risk of PPH, informed consent should involve women having this explained to them and being allowed to choose their place of birth not being told (and I quote my midwife) "unless your iron is above the threshold by 38weeks, you won't be allowed to have a homebirth".

I do see advice on the group to ignore classification as high-risk and choose to birth at home anyway. The birthplace study would seem to agree with this advice - although I would personally be uncomfortable with drawing this conclusion from the data. I think where there are elevated risk factors the actual statistics should be given to the women to enable her to make as informed a decision as possible about place and mode of birth.

Since that is a million miles from the current situation it isn't surprising that occasionally people go to the opposite extreme when trying to fight against what is usually needless intervention. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that it won't occasionally result in a dangerous outcome, but it does make it likely that the groups do more good than harm. Which cannot be said of current obstetric units. I'm definitely not in favour of spreading misinformation. But I'm also in favour of free speech. And I'm very in favour of informing women of their rights and encouraging them to question their HCPs in situations where they are not being given the information needed or the even the opportunity to give informed consent. That doesn't mean the best choice might not be what the HCP recommended in the first place. But it does mean the woman should be given the numerical risks of the different options where that is available, the best guesses of the relative risks otherwise, and then allowed to make an actual informed choice. Since that isn't happening by default, it is on the whole helpful for other people to question whether listening to the medical professionals is truly the safest course of action.[/quote]
That is an incredibly assertive essay given it lacks any factual support.

Can you please tell me why homebirth as a standard would be so great for first time mums, given half of women would need to transfer (I’m guessing an emergency ambulance ride wouldn’t do much for their mental state or birth trauma?).

Why would homebirth make tearing & haemorrhage less likely? These are unforeseeable events, and the latter is a common reason for homebirth transfers as it is.

How do you know intervention is usually needless, as opposed to sometimes needless?

What would you do if you were me out of interest? I’m a type 1 diabetic with a previous VB. Would you consider me suitable for a homebirth despite guidance?

Teaandcakeordeath83 · 12/01/2022 00:20

I haven't read through them all but I suspect I am a member of the home birth group in question. I think most people on here would have a shit fit at my home birth decisions- I had a home birth after 2 sections with maternal medical conditions alongside a suspected small baby- that turned out to be 2.5lbs heavier than predicted and ironically now puts me under the pathway for monitoring for "big babies" should I have a fourth ...

Personally I found the group useful. I'm a scientist by trade and like seeking out evidence and anecdote. I could do without the woo but that's my approach to all woo- not just birth. There aren't just successful stories on the group- you get to see the entire spectrum of births and outcomes which I found more informative than the outright coercive spiel I got from fellow NHS HCPs. You get to find new resources (aims, mbrace studies, Cochrane library, evidence based midwives etc etc etc) and evidence based papers which allow you to make a decision based on your knowledge of your body, your HCPs advice and what the literature says (and the quality of that). Would I leave my personal medical decisions to a Facebook group?- no. Would I use a home birth group as a place to find out information that in turn leads to other resources?- yes. Do I agree with every decision a mother has made about their pregnancies and births on any Facebook group I'm on?- no. But it's not my body, baby or decision to make- and that goes from decisions ranging from free birthing to repeat sections. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@lifeisnteasy "Part of the issue is that fanatical natural birth advocates talk about ‘evidence’, which is statistical averages & likelihoods, but then complain that women aren’t treated as individuals & instead lumped in with everyone else. Which is it?"

You've answered your own question there. Statistical averages and likelihoods are a useful decision making tool. They shouldn't be the decision nor presented as the only possible outcome nor skewed to fit personal bias. For example I was quoted (without any evidence other than the consultants "gut instinct") "a 1 in 5 chance of killing my baby" if I had a home birth. Yet when I said to the consultant using exactly the same rationale of gut instinct that I believed my risk of killing my baby was in line with the risk of such an event happening in hospital I was instantly dismissed- only consultants are allowed gut instinct apparently. Another statistic I was given was that my chance of uterine rupture would be 1 in 200. A statistic that was repeatedly hammered into me as though it was a certainty it would happen and result in instant death for me and my baby. Well that statistic shows that 199 vbacs don't rupture. It doesn't even begin to breakdown the outcomes of the rupture (a vanishingly small percentage of those ruptures are catastrophic) yet it's one of the main reasons that consultants push for repeat sections. My consultant couldn't even produce the statistics on rupture for our incredibly busy maternity hospital. They don't collect them as it's so rare- this is a hospital with more than 8000 births per year and a monthly section rate of roughly 35%- yet repeatedly I was told how irresponsible I was being as I would almost certainly experience a catastrophic rupture. Informed consent is just that- if a woman knows the risks and is happy to accept them then the HCPs providing that care should treat them individually.

Birth is emotive but HCPs do themselves and the pretty shoddy evidence base they work on no favours by presenting data as gospel and lumping all women together.

Mumofthree4210 · 12/01/2022 10:27

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Mumofthree4210 · 12/01/2022 10:38

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Lifeisnteasy · 12/01/2022 10:41

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MeganJames101 · 12/01/2022 10:55

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NightGinn · 12/01/2022 11:13

It’s been mentioned on FB, so prepare for incoming traffic

Rachael4210 · 12/01/2022 12:05

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AliceAll · 12/01/2022 12:17

@Lifeisnteasy "Can you please tell me why homebirth as a standard would be so great for first time mums, given half of women would need to transfer (I’m guessing an emergency ambulance ride wouldn’t do much for their mental state or birth trauma?)."
The majority of homebirth transfers are non-emergencies, and the transfer rate is lower for trusts where more homebirths are carried out (birthplace followup study). I literally just explained all the reasons why it would be better - reductions in intervention rates are shown directly in the birthplace study including for FTMs. This is replicated in Reitsma 2020. Birth trauma hasn't been studied by intended place of birth as far as I know so that was conjecture but 3x lower EMCS, instrumental birth and episiotomy rates are likely to reduce trauma don't you think?
I also should clarify that I don't think home-birth should be forced on anyone who thinks they would feel safer in on OU. I think a lot of the fear around birth is disproportionate and unhelpful but hospital is always going to be the better choice for some people even without medical risk factors - eg stressful home environment, past trauma at home, domestic abuse, past medical emergencies, or even just people who work in hospitals and feel more relaxed in that environment. I really wouldn't want a situation where it's pushed on women as the best (in the generic breast-is-best style), without the option for them to just say - no it's not for me don't mention it again.

"Why would homebirth make tearing & haemorrhage less likely? These are unforeseeable events, and the latter is a common reason for homebirth transfers as it is."
In the birthplace study there were lower incidences of both at home but it's not statistically significant. Nove et al 2012 find significantly fewer PPH at home in the UK. Reitsma 2020 also found significant reductions at home but I know you don't like international studies. I just looked again at the data - I misremembered the stats on tears for FTMs (by the time that paper came out I'd already had my first so it wasn't as relevant to me). Overall it's lower at home but no difference for FTMs so tearing rates might not change. I don't know the reasons for the lower risk of PPH - maybe because women at home are more relaxed, and have less disruption to the hormones that drive labour. How would you explain the statistics?

"How do you know intervention is usually needless, as opposed to sometimes needless?"
I don't believe that intervention at the point that it happens is needless - however the much lower rate at home compared with hospital (where the consequences of watchful expectancy should be lower) strongly suggest that the majority (2/3) would have been unnecessary at home and are an indirect consequence of the cascade of intervention. The rates of intervention are ~3x higher in hospital (in low risk women incl FTMs). So 2/3 of them wouldn't have been necessary at home. How do you explain the tripled intervention rate?

"What would you do if you were me out of interest? I’m a type 1 diabetic with a previous VB. Would you consider me suitable for a homebirth despite guidance?" I don't know anything about the specific risks of type 1 diabetes but I think you should ask what the specific risks are, what the likelihood of them occuring at home and hospital are, compare them with the relative risks of other complications and make an informed decision from there. I certainly don't think the policy should be, "oh you have a health-condition - lets put you into a pathway with a 3x higher rate of intervention without your consent." I imagine you'd be pretty annoyed at being treated like that in any other area of life or healthcare just because it's easier than treating you as an individual. There may well be reasons why homebirth would be riskier for typr1 diabetes on balance but I don't know anything about it.

Namechangetimes100 · 12/01/2022 12:17

@Mumofthree4210

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@Mumofthree4210, please unlike all your peers that have been ‘set on us’ read the thread and understand what’s being said but numerous posters. I’ll summarise for you below in case you’re struggling:
  • home birth is a lovely option for a lot of women especially those who have had traumatic previous births. Low risk and some of those sitting in the more arbitrary high risk categories (being over 35 etc)
-Certain groups often have useful info like where to buy birth pools and twinkly lights BUT there is also encourage some really dangerous choices (declining all obstetric care, Prem home delivery without medics, refusal of extra monitoring and early delivery for iugr) I can list how It’s dangerous if you like -rejecting all medical advise is dangerous - this is common sense
  • birth is a physiological event that can become a medical emergency
  • obstetrics in the uk needs reform
-as you and your group Mates have demonstrated there’s a real sectarian mentality in that group us v them. Some of the comments that MN hq have thankfully deleted have been really threatening. -Initially no individual group or person were referenced just an overall theme that was until a certain individual entered the thread, made it l about herself, rallied the troops (you included) with some inflammatory propaganda (that perfectly fits us v them narrative) and then set them to attack.

Hope that helps before you call any more names!

Take care

OP posts:
Namechangetimes100 · 12/01/2022 12:19

@NightGinn

It’s been mentioned on FB, so prepare for incoming traffic
@NightGinn what did I miss?
OP posts:
AHobbyaweek · 12/01/2022 12:53

I resonate with the post from @Teaandcakeordeath83 as I am also a scientist and work in pharma and shock horror one of the products I work on is an induction agent.
I am also not a fan of the woo of anything in general but used the home birth group mentioned to get all the evidence links find the newer studies and support from AIMs.
I had a home birth VBAC after weighing up the increased risk (scar rupture) and it's outcomes and deciding that the risk was worth the lower risk if I was induced, interfered with or pushed to follow the standard VBAC protocol in hospital.

I do understand where people are coming from with any misinformation, any anti HCP commentary and the like but it has swung the other way here with a lot of people getting personal and attacking groups in general.

Unfortunately there is very unlikely to be truly unbiased information coming out of the NHS, pharma content or other healthcare organisations as having worked with all of them for years they all have their own agendas or laws preventing them giving you all the information. They all try but a hospital policy might stop you getting information about the risks of induction for instance or the laws around patient information from a pharma company might stop you getting information about the options for induction in case they accidentally push you to request a certain thing.
To be truly making informed decisions as a patient in any disease area you have to be able to understand health information and do your own research. I have seen patients in almost every disease area get better results and care, just by having their own research and asking the right questions of their HCP. Maternity services are no different other than you then have the complexity of your babies life as well and suddenly everyone calls you names if you question HCPs about anything. Even if just asking for the evidence.

Diggersaursarethebest · 12/01/2022 12:53

There is some seriously bad mathematical reasoning happening on this thread.

Rachael04210 · 12/01/2022 13:04

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Rachael04210 · 12/01/2022 13:11

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PollyRae16 · 12/01/2022 13:22

Yanbu! Sounds so scary. I read a thread a few weeks of a woman who was completely refusing induction despite being 43 weeks and counting.
Whilst I do think in some instances induction is offered way too early and heavy intervention seems standard there's no way i'd refuse scans and blood test and opt out of any medical monitoring - it's just dangerous! My first birth was quite traumatic trying to be convinced that I had to have an epidural and the drip.
My friend just had a home birth for her first which was a really positive experience for her but if at any point she was told it wasn't possible she'd have gone to hospital.
Why would you do anything to put your baby at risk!?

Patapouf · 12/01/2022 13:23

Ooh someone mentioned me in a post and it was deleted before I could have a read. Quelle dommage.

Namechangetimes100 · 12/01/2022 13:26

It’s not trolling and there are many many home birth groups / pages on social media OP wasn’t in reference to a single one, if you feel that the group you’re on routinely does all the things I mentioned in my op then that’s a pretty damning indictment, but OP was about a trend in a lot of HB pages.

I think the reason people don’t speak up In groups like that have been really demonstrated on this thread by group members.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about doxxing people? Using a 2 year old child with cancer to make a flimsy point? What about a child with a genetic condition or a dead loved one or an abusive past? Feel good about that? That’s not trolling or bullying is it? Because it came from your group? Tbh that’s the kind of stuff people kill themselves over not difference of opinions.

OP posts:
Ikona · 12/01/2022 13:30

Wow I take it there's been an influx of group members joining to write not so nice messages (judging by the deletions).
I think I have made the right choice by avoiding it!

Ikona · 12/01/2022 13:33

@Namechangetimes100 the FB thing will be that the doula who posted here has posted quotes from you and @Patapouf on her business page, along with another post which is alluding to this thread (while also saying how she couldn't care less about it... go figure).

LaBellina · 12/01/2022 13:33

My mother had 5 babies at home without any issues, I choose to have mine at the hospital, didn’t want to take any risks. You never know what will go wrong. I do understand some are put off by horror stories on how women are treated during labor and after and this issue really needs to be addressed. Still, I think free birth is a too extreme solution that I would never choose.

Patapouf · 12/01/2022 13:38

[quote Ikona]**@Namechangetimes100* the FB thing will be that the doula who posted here has posted quotes from you and @Patapouf* on her business page, along with another post which is alluding to this thread (while also saying how she couldn't care less about it... go figure).[/quote]
"I don't care what they say, I haven't even read much of the thread" martyrdom accompanied by aforementioned begging bowl 🙄🙄🙄

Interesting that over on Facebook the reaction to excerpts from my posts on this thread have led members of a certain group to believe I am jealous, vile, a bitch, negative, smack my children, against attachment parenting, misogynist etc etc etc

Trawling through my MN posting history looking for clues about my DCs ages and who I am. They need to get a grip Smile

Orarewedancer · 12/01/2022 13:39

It's getting embarrassing. The more people that jump on here in defence and post the way they are, the more crazy the group is looking. Members are recommending the doula goes to the police for slander when the only person that mentioned her name was herself in her username!

MeganJames101 · 12/01/2022 16:49

Of course people are going to try and find out who
you are. You are bullying someone online and it’s not on. It’s disgusting. Anyone that ‘jumps’ on this post, does not say anything about the group at all. The people saying something to you are the decent ones willing to help someone stop getting bullied. This is so childish and it needs to stop

Swipe left for the next trending thread