Men who refuse to marry the mothers of their children

[SparrowNest]

You see that so often on here. I don’t mean couples where both parties are happy to marry, but ones where the man refuses despite their partner desperately wanting it, or else strings them along indefinitely.

Is there any reason at all, other than that he doesn’t want to have any duty to provide her with financial security for if they break up? So not only is he already thinking about potentially leaving, he’s happy to fuck over the person he ostensibly currently loves if they do break up.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it. I suppose the ones being strung along have just been lied to, but having children is actually the bigger commitment in many ways. You’re joined for life. It seems so nasty to be prepared to do that, but not offer your partner the security and commitment they want.

It's strange whenever I read these threads that it's always about the financial/legal protections, which yes are very important. But for me, the marriage was about the man I loved wanting to stand up in front of all our relatives and friends and willingly and happily make some really important vows that meant everything to us. I can't imagine committing my life to someone who didn't want to do that, to be honest. But no point pressuring someone into that. Like others have said, it's not uncommon for someone to dodge commitment for years only to split up then promptly commit to and marry someone else.

I don’t think marriage as an institution is a positive thing in today’s world. I think it discourages women from chasing financial and personal independence. We should have more support for mothers on a societal level like free or cheaper childcare and workplace flexibility - marriage shouldn’t be seen as the safety blanket for that because in reality it often isn’t.

I totally agree with this. Marriage is for a lot of women a necessary evil and a good safety net and it is always sensible for a woman who is planning not to work for a period of time. But this is not the ideal solution at all and not something we should be encouraging as the ideal for our daughters.

The ideal is to raise girls who are financially self-sufficient and can support their children alone if they need or want to. Combining assets with a man if that man is worthy can enhance their lives but it should never be seen as the default and no woman should ever have to rely on marriage for their financial security.

This isn't going to happen overnight: it would take a lot of societal change and probably major financial incentives such as subsidised childcare and significant shifts by employers with respect to flexible working etc. And unhappily I doubt it will happen even in my daughter's lifetime, let alone mine. But over the long term this is the only way to genuinely protect women financially.

Not necessarily.
DP would get married tomorrow, I'm not in a rush, we're not high earners, we have life insurance, home insurance, two DC, not much to lose or gain.
We have discussed eloping but have no immediate plans life gets in the way.

I think marriage can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.
It depends what age and life circumstances you are at.

In my younger years I so very much wanted to be married and have the traditional relationship followed by children. It didn’t happen as I was with unreliable men.

Being older I now would not get married though I have been with my partner for 17 years. Why?

Well I have inheritance, money in my company, very decent savings, a house I own outright of significant value and my independence.

I’m the opposite you could say. My partner earns a decent wage but doesn’t have the “wealth” I have. He made different choices. There is no way I will get married. Who knows what the future could bring. But we don’t have children so that’s a huge factor in the equation.

If one is starting out it’s very different, if one has been around the block a bit again it’s definitely different.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

To the women on here (smugly) telling us how they got married before children and asking why don't we all do the same: I'll bet all of you were actually asked by your husband to get married before you seriously wanted to have a baby with him.

A lot of couples move in together once they have been dating a while. Convention dictates that the women has to be passive about marriage and wait and wait some more to be asked while her eggs get older. The proposal appears to be the man committing himself to the woman, rather than a mutual decision.

However, having a baby together is usually a mutual decision, so it's deemed acceptable for the woman to broach the subject and persuade the man. It seems to me that it's easier to get his DNA than a proposal.

We need to change our daughters' mindset: You can discuss marriage and insist upon if if you are a woman. Do not wait for him like a book on a shelf. You are a valuable, smart and talented person. If he's not thrilled at the thought of having you forever, dump his ass. Do not idealise big proposals, expensive engagement rings or fancy weddings that let a man put off the proposal while he waits for the right time or saves the money.

This is exactly the issue at hand. I don’t understand when this happened. When did women become this meek and passive? When did they lose their agency?

@Blossom64265

This is exactly the issue at hand. I don’t understand when this happened. When did women become this meek and passive? When did they lose their agency?

I think this is a a bit disingenuous though. I totally agree that sitting around waiting for a proposal is a terrible idea. But until fairly recently that was the convention. Within my lifetime (I'm early 50s) it was frowned upon for a woman to initiate marriage discussions.

The point is that until the 60s men more or less knew they had to get married if they wanted to have a committed sexual relationship with a woman so it was the price of doing business and it didn't seriously occur to them that it could be otherwise. For the past 50 years or so the moral obligation on a man to propose if we wants to have sex has disappeared.

I don't want to go back to that at all: I'm very glad marriage for all isn't the default. But I think this freedom has benefited men a lot more than it has benefited most women. They can hedge their bets almost indefinitely.

Women can and should propose if they want to get married and a lot do, but it shouldn't be a huge surprise, given that until recently it was considered shameful, that some still don't want to. It's not particularly that women have become meeker and more passive, its that men have a get-out-of-jail-free card which they didn't have 50 years ago.

I've been with my partner 14 years we have a 9 year old and 8month. Met when I was 16. We aren't married would I like to be married probably yes would like us as a family to have the same name. Would our family dynamic change being married no.

He isn't keen on getting married as all of his family have been married 2 or 3 times.

We will probably get married one day but it does annoy that my friends and other people seem to have more of an issue with it than we do. I can be at parties and people are going on and on about it.....then I end up feeling like we are doing something wrong.

Everyone is different what works for some won't work for others

I have one of these and he asks me why I resent him. We have kids, I don't see us splitting up, but it certainly has affected how I feel about him long term. I just don't love him in the same way. I don't really know what his reasons are, he doesn't particularly have any reasons not to have married me years ago. So now I just don't really want to. I don't feel I could stand there and look him in the eye after years of being not good enough.

I totally agree that sitting around waiting for a proposal is a terrible idea. But until fairly recently that was the convention. Within my lifetime (I'm early 50s) it was frowned upon for a woman to initiate marriage discussions.

The woman doesn’t have to propose. She just makes it clear that any moving in and having babies will only be happening with somebody she is married to.

Although in my view, if you are older than your mid twenties and you have been seeing somebody for more than two years and he hasn’t initiated a conversation about the future, you are on a hiding to nothing and should move on. The PP who said that men will commit to marriage when they think you are the best they can get is spot on.

They might 'commit' and it may even last a lifetime, but they always want the 'open crack in the front door' that not being married gives. Marriage means that door is shut, not locked, but it's not as easy to get outside. I think that's the main reason people don't want to marry, much more than trying to protect assets or finances.

It's pretty easy to divorce.

It's not pretty easy to take all of your money and assets with you if you get divorced.

@Iamthewombat

I totally agree that if a woman wants marriage she should hold the line on this before cohabiting and having babies. I'm just not sure that its true that women have become more passive and weak. I don't think they have, I just think men have more freedom and are generally far less willing to get married these days. I think deep down the majority of men will avoid marriage if they think they can.

Oh yes, for sure. We (women) have to stop enabling them!

I am in my late 50s and i don't agree at all that waiting for a proposal was the convention when i was young. My dh and i talked about marriage and decided together when the time felt right, in hindsight we were probably a bit young at 23, but we were both earning and in a position to buy a house. All of my friends and family were the same (i have 7 sisters), they all decided to get married as a couple. One or two of them did the whole proposal thing, but after they had already agreed to marry. The romantic proposal thing is a modern concept imo, traditionally a man would determine when he was in a financially stable position and ready to marry and would propose, as he would be expected to provide for his wife and any children that came along, there was nothing romantic about it. Now that women can and do provide for themselves this romantic proposal nonsense has come about, though i can never quite figure out what is romantic about waiting around for a man to decide your future for you.

I think there’s been a lot of social change which has led to where we are now but the gaps in that social change are where women get screwed.

Now, having children without being married or living with a partner without being married has lost most of its social stigma.

Abandoning your children or doing the absolute bare minimum for men has not lost its social stigma.

And this is where women lose out. Children need a certain level of care and funds in order to thrive. And it’s women who, on the whole, provide this. So women miss out on opportunities to build their careers and fund their retirement in the way that men do. Until this changes, marriage is a way for women to even up the playing field. And even that generally doesn’t get them to where men are.

We could instantly improve many womens lives by addressing the flaws in CSA and in stigmatising men who don’t put in the hard yards in raising their children.

It's not really my business what those I know who aren't married do.

I just do hope they know the law and have wills etc., when it comes to inheritance and protecting their child/ren and their interests. A lot of people expect things automatically go to underage children when it's not the case. It can even be the expectation that you'd expect a next of kin to ensure your children are protected and family relationships don't always shape up how you'd expect. I think that goes both ways though and it's not necessarily the case that one party is unaware whilst the other is totally aware.

@SparrowNest - your post is sexist and outdated. Marriage doesn’t necessarily bring women financial security. A significant proportion of women are higher earners with more assets than their partners - they’re better off not being married. Many married women who give up their careers to have children end up impoverished on divorce.

We need more equal sharing of childcare and the costs of children between their parents. That way women can work on the same terms as men.

@Rainbowqueeen - i agrée entirely that what’s really needed to improve womens lives is a child maintenance system that means the financial burden of children is shared. Not returning to the 50s where we shame women for being unmarried mothers.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all. If that’s important to someone, either man or woman, then check your partner is onboard and get married BEFORE having children. Then no need for anyone to cry hard done by after the fact. There’s a level of personal responsibility with all this that you are not acknowledging.

@RobotValkyrie - what nonsense that a «man who doesn’t marry the mother of his children says he doesn’t care about the dc on his death». He could make a will to leave his property to his partner or children and if he hasn’t made a will his children will inherit everything.

@DesdemonaDryEyes

I can never understand why folk make such a big deal about proposals and weddings when they already share children and a house.

Oh please. Proposals and weddings are ridiculous and the older I get the more ridiculous they seem.

Social media is an utter plague now on bubonic levels.

The absolutely massive wedding industry and its associates (magazines/influencers/huge advertising) etc are lethal. Women are more plugged into it than men.

Oh Men are plugged into a whole world of other shit, don't get me wrong - gambling, drinking, football etc

Our lives are "inspired" all day long by advertising and sales and clicks and mens' lives are too.

Marriage is a contract. Nothing more, nothing less. Easy to get into, expensive to get out and we all know that.

And i am shocked at the pps who speak about women doing «wifely duties» to men they aren’t married to and «why buy the cow when the milk is free» etc. Unless you are the lower earner, marriage won’t benefit you anyway - are we really still stuck on telling women to marry a rich man?

It’s sad that women still think like that. Let’s stop valuing women on who they married and start looking at their own achievements. Let’s tell our daughters to get great jobs and build their assets and change our child support system to one that is fit for purpose. That’s much better than telling them to marry well.

Given the amount of shit marriages you read about on here I think any woman who doesn't want to legally tie herself to a man is wise.

This is such an interesting thread.

The general consensus seems to be the way forward is to protect women by better societal rights, access to childcare, financial independence etc. These are all good, positive things of course & I am for them.

But there is something that bothers me with this modern, progressive approach- and it was touched on by @thepeopleversuswork in a slightly different context- where are the men in this?? Where is their responsibility? Yes ok let’s protect women, but that means what for the mens responsibility to society, to their families..? How can we encourage men to support family life - it seems to me (as a woman, currently pregnant as it happens, marrried) that I am doing a lot for my family.. I don’t want the sole responsibility of doing the baby making, the earning, and the child raising, on my own- even if I can & it’s not a total shitshow of a life due to societal rights; I don’t want that burden my whole life without the other person who is 50% responsible also carrying some load.

Depressingly this leads me to another rather existential question.. in that case if it’s all our responsibility because men have been written off as useless; who are we having kids for? Ourselves? For the kids? For future society? I don’t know the answer to that but I fear in future when we have a labour shortage & an aged population who need financial support from young, working demographics, in western capitalist society this question will be raised. Xo

I wasn't in any particular rush or push to marry at the time I did but my husband wanted us to tie the knot for legal reasons and to ensure financial security in the event anything happened to him.

He isn't the biological father of our daughter but we started seeing each other when she was only a few months old or so. No involvement or dealings whatsoever with the ex and my husband adored and has raised her as his own since before she could sit up straight.

I was working for family law solicitors and had her surnamed changed by deed poll already but husband was updating his will and insurance info so included a specific clause that in the event of his death, I was the sole beneficiary and in the event we died together, daughter was to inherit all his estate to be held in trust etc. It was on his mind that the house, his savings and insurance polices weren't necessarily going to come to us by default and with our daughter not his biological child, he had to straighten that out and get it sorted to feel more at ease and sleep easy.

I fell pregnant with our son about 18 months or so later and my husband was more keen for us to wrap it up and feel we were complete as a family by getting married. I didn't marry him out of obligation or because I knew he wanted to obviously – I wanted to marry him but I could have lived happily with us just as we are.

If I'd been that way inclined, it would have been an absolute doddle and a nice little earner for me to stick it out a couple of years, divorce him and take his house or a nice lump sum from its sale plus maintenance etc.

Couples can still have and arrange to work things so they are afforded the same legal rights without being married if they want. I think if either person in a relationship is less keen to marry than the other – it's probably not a good idea to get married at all.

Everyone is different what works for some won't work for others

Fair enough. Except in the preceding paragraph you say that you would like to get married, but he doesn't. So it doesn't really 'work' for you, only for him.