Men who refuse to marry the mothers of their children

[SparrowNest]

You see that so often on here. I don’t mean couples where both parties are happy to marry, but ones where the man refuses despite their partner desperately wanting it, or else strings them along indefinitely.

Is there any reason at all, other than that he doesn’t want to have any duty to provide her with financial security for if they break up? So not only is he already thinking about potentially leaving, he’s happy to fuck over the person he ostensibly currently loves if they do break up.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it. I suppose the ones being strung along have just been lied to, but having children is actually the bigger commitment in many ways. You’re joined for life. It seems so nasty to be prepared to do that, but not offer your partner the security and commitment they want.

Women don't have to have children with men before they commit to marriage. Their choice, it's not inflicted upon them.

But when the child is unplanned, it can be difficult for the mother to walk away, when they could raise the child with the father, even if he won't marry. This was how I came about, unplanned, my Dad refused to marry, had been married before. My Mum was quite a bit younger and very much wanted the respectability of marriage... I went to their wedding when I was 35

I don't think it is sexist, when couples have children generally it is the women who picks up the majority of childcare and whose career takes a hit. The consequence of this in the past was marriage and the financial security it brought the women who had made those sacrifices and often enabled the mans career in the process
The problem is men are not upfront, in theory they have nothing against marriage but once the women has moved in and had a child then suddenly they are vehemently opposed to marriage, women trapped at this stage has less options and just leaving often isn't one of them so it can go on for years.

@ComtesseDeSpair

I think that too many women get into relationships hoping that they can make their partner change his mind about many things, marriage being one of them. Too many women actively put themselves in crappy positions, and in a world where women can be educated, earning well and owning property, I don’t quite understand why women are portrayed as helpless creatures having no agency in their life decisions and relationships they stay in.

As an aside, marriage only really gives you some security in divorce if there’s property and money involved: women married to low or average earners and who rent their home (an increasing number of people) will leave their marriage with nothing.

On the latter part, even if there isn’t actually much security, it generally still seems like fear of being financially responsible is what’s holding men back.

So they’re still thinking in terms of screwing the mother of their children over.

This post just made me think of Sam faiers, he seems to enjoy the control it brings

Women can also choose not to have chidren till they are married. It will keep their career options open. Anyone can say no to getting married and anyone can say no to having kids outside marriage.

@TeenyQueen

I think the financial aspect of marriage is one thing, but we often forget that marriage bring both parties a lot of legal protections if someone dies or is seriously injured. It also gives you the right to use the same surname, which was actually very important to me, I would hate to have a different name than my children.

I would not have had children with DH unless we were married, if we'd had an unplanned pregnancy I would have expected to get married before the baby was born (I was never fussed about having a big wedding).

Some people say that marriage is just a piece of paper, but it's a pretty important piece of paper legally if something goes wrong.

I have the same surname as dp. You can have the same surname without marriage.

I do agree that 'marriage is just a piece of paper' is such a pile of bollocks. From both sides. Someone who doesn't want to get married shouldn't do it by being Co Vincent it doesn't change much.

There's been quote a few threads lately where the woman, higher earner and has assets marries. Marriage falls apart and then the realise he is now entitled to a portion of everything and they 'didn't think about it at that time'

Imo, marriage from a legal and financial perspective and its consequences need to be taken more seriously. Rather than seeing it as a piece of paper or 'cause we are in love'. Its a serious legal agreement that's hard to undo.

So they’re still thinking in terms of screwing the mother of their children over.

So women only want to marry to be entitled to be provided for?

I don't think that's true.

And if you haven't got married, not getting g anything isn't being screwed. You know you aren't married. You are an adult who can fund out all the information you need.

Its not a secret.

I would say it’s almost always financial, whatever the stated reason is, a man with property or high income not wanting to have half of his wealth taken. ( or the perception of that). It’s very common in second partnerships, of course it can work both ways, if a woman has property or pensions, I’m sure it will become more common.”

“Ask for financial advice” oh yea, the only answer you will get is don’t get married.

I don’t think it’s even as sinister as wanting to screw over their partner, I think most men don’t want to get married. Both men and women are being taught to be independent: women work, men cook and clean- why is marriage important to show commitment?

there are many variables. property, finance, extended family. Narriage doesn't always mean security. It can be the opposite, let's say your partner has a lot of debt.

@AlDanvers

So they’re still thinking in terms of screwing the mother of their children over.

So women only want to marry to be entitled to be provided for?

I don't think that's true.

And if you haven't got married, not getting g anything isn't being screwed. You know you aren't married. You are an adult who can fund out all the information you need.

Its not a secret.

I wanted to be married to make a lifelong commitment to each other. Now I’m a SAHM, with a view to going back to work after a few years break, I’m glad for the security of it. Partly, just the emotional security of knowing my husband hasn’t deliberately avoided making a commitment to split assets because he’s thinking in terms of leaving.

@Crazykatie

I would say it’s almost always financial, whatever the stated reason is, a man with property or high income not wanting to have half of his wealth taken. ( or the perception of that). It’s very common in second partnerships, of course it can work both ways, if a woman has property or pensions, I’m sure it will become more common.”

“Ask for financial advice” oh yea, the only answer you will get is don’t get married.

Yes, this is my assumption. Whatever reason they might give, generally it’s actually (real or imagined) financial concerns that put them off.

We were this couple. Id been married before, both of our parents had had failed marriages and now DH didn't ever want to get married. We had DC and whilst I was a bit sad about it it wasn't a huge deal until DH had a nasty accident and was minutes from death. He realised that not even just on a romantic level but on a practical level as responsible parents we should get married. No grand proposal or fancy wedding but we are happy.

If it’s that important to a woman they shouldn’t have children until they are married.

In my case (ttc) Capital Gains Tax, innit. You have a joint allowance when married. If you both own a place, you lose out. Not the case in all these situations ofc.

I think too many women are ruled by their hearts not their heads.

I knew there was no way I was having children unless married because I am not romantic and I don't 100% trust anyone.

If marriage before children is important then that's the deal you make and you stick to it.

If it's not important then no problem. But if it's what you want then don't put that aside because of pretty words and promises of soon.

marriage is far less common now than 40+ years ago as is religion which often is supportive of marriage.
when choosing a partner if marriage is important make sure it's important to him as well.
i suspect many young men did not grow up in families where the mother was married, or not a member of a religious community which supports marriage so they just don't "know" about it.
ideally the community you make your vows in, supports you in times of struggle and helps both partners understand each other's views.
now there is MN AIBU and a slew of "therapists" which know nothing about your unique family circumstances.

I think for the women it’s a sunk costs fallacy. They don’t want to start all over again. As for the men I think they don’t love these women, they just think they will do and usually in these situations you find out the woman is doing loads for the man in terms of household crap. So why would they give that up.

If it’s that important to a woman they shouldn’t have children until they are married.

Sometimes women get bad advice from the older generation. Like - Mr. Wrong won't marry ya? Get yourself knocked up and he will have to do "the right thing". Doesn't work this way anymore.

Honestly, I find that generally speaking, men do want to marry if they love the woman. That's why the ultimatum sometimes works. They realise that they will lose her otherwise, and they don't want to, so they commit. And usually, in those cases, find that they like it.

When they won't commit, ie won't marry, it's generally because they don't love her, or don't love her enough. And it's deeply saddening how many of them will string a woman along until she's lost her chance for children, then get with another younger woman for marriage and a family. As horrible as it is, I don't think these guys, as arseholish as they are, do it maliciously and intentionally. They're just happy enough with the situation, never had to make a serious decision about it, and only once they realise that they've lost their chance of kids if they stay with this woman, are they prompted into what they really want, what they're prepared to change for. Much like when they get an ultimatum.

I know it's not ALWAYS the case that a man who won't marry just doesn't love his partner enough, but I think it's true more often than not, especially when the woman does want marriage. And that's not a fault of the woman. She hasn't failed just because this dude doesn't love her. But she should realise that she deserves to be loved properly.

The biological clock complicates everything, of course. I can understand why women accept a degree of shite if it looks to be their only chance of children. I sometimes wonder if menopause is actually nature's way of preventing men from evolving by almost forcing women to reproduce with shitheads, or have no kids at all.

If I was a man who had a good job, savings and maybe a house of my own I wouldn't want to get married either. And have somebody come after my pension. No thanks.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it
And there we go. No matter what men do, it is always that fault of women.

why people accept that kind of treatment.

Many of the people posting about it on MN appear to have had such a strong drive to have children, that they prioritise children while they are in their fertile years.

Anything else is considered less important

Id guess that men do it because they can.

I think the only reason people don’t want to get married is because they think they might regret it. They might worry they’ll lose money, or meet someone they like more, or have to give up assets/lifestyle - basically that their life will change in a way they’re not 100% sure about. And they worry they won’t be able to go back to how things were before.
I say this as someone who has been proposed to several times and engaged once, but been unable to actually commit to getting married!

Agree that when people don’t want to marry it’s almost always because the person with more financial assets - or the prospect of gaining money over time, eg through career progression or inheritance - wouldn’t want to share the money with their partner in the event of divorce. Even with existing or future DC to consider.

In most cases, fathers’ economic position is at least equivalent to their position before becoming a father, whilst mothers’ is substantially worse. Few fathers are willing to work part time and hardly any to SAH.

As for why some women with fewer financial assets than their partner don’t insist on marriage before DC, perhaps inequality in dating and relationships means that we consider our options and opportunities and make trade offs and take risks, especially if our age or health means we have fertility concerns. For example, someone in her mid 30s in a long term relationship who wants DC might think that a substantial proportion of men prefer to date younger women and/or not to marry. So might take the chance to have DC, even without marriage.

AlDanvers, I disagree with you: one can be emotionally committed without marriage, have some shared financial assets etc. Buy financial commitment is much less outside marriage because assets are not shared post break up.