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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ghislaine Maxwell.....

325 replies

Livelovebehappy · 30/12/2021 07:20

Ghislaine Maxwell has been found guilty of grooming young girls for Jeffrey Epstein. Whilst she absolutely was guilty of aiding the abuse of these girls, shouldn’t there now be investigations into the high profile men who were clearly involved in the abuse? Clinton and Trump, as well as a Prince Andrew were clearly very close to Epstein, and there have been rumours of many other famous people being around at the time. I actually think Epstein’s death was suspect, and I wouldn’t be surprised if his death had been staged to protect some high profile men from being exposed. Maxwell has definitely taken the fall for a lot of people who should have been in the dock with her.

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/01/2022 20:46

Well, as said I'm astounded if they've not managed to produce back up for Andrew's "no sweating" claims; has he really become so unacceptable that they can't find anyone? Confused

A bit surprised, too, that the Guardian's reporting Judhe Kaplan's rejection of the "NY court has no jurisdiction" thing ... I thought that's what next Tuesday's hearing was for, but once again I'm no lawyer

DeliriaSkibbly · 01/01/2022 20:54

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Well, as said I'm astounded if they've not managed to produce back up for Andrew's "no sweating" claims; has he really become so unacceptable that they can't find anyone? Confused

A bit surprised, too, that the Guardian's reporting Judhe Kaplan's rejection of the "NY court has no jurisdiction" thing ... I thought that's what next Tuesday's hearing was for, but once again I'm no lawyer

I think you're starting from a false basic premise with the 'cannot sweat' thing...

You seem to think he was telling the truth when he said that.

SantaClawsServiette · 01/01/2022 21:00

@diddl

"He probably thought the girls were there freely and fancied him...."

Yes, I can't help thinking that.

This isn't really that unlikely a scenario, and not just because people like PA have inflated egos.

When you get into the world of the rich and famous, there are lots of women who go to these kinds of parties to be, essentially, high end prostitutes for money, or in some cases just to be near fame and fortune. It's common at some of these events for b-list actresses to be a feature and they can earn quite a lot of money if they hook up with the right man for the weekend. It's a very similar phenomena to band groupies who put up with some really crazy, unappealing and dangerous sexual activity because they are so starry eyed about fame.

If you are in circles where that is the norm, why would you suspect anything different with a guy like Epstein? And probably a lot of the women at his parties did fall into those groups. What really got him in trouble that people started to talk about was his fetish for very young, young-looking virgins, who were picked up for him by people like GM at schools and such. But those don't seem to have been necessarily the same girls he was having around at parties.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/01/2022 21:02

My fault if I made it sound like that, Deleria - actually I couldn't be LESS convinced he was telling the truth

My surprise was because I expected the family to pressure some medic to back up his claim; so far it doesn't seem to have happened, hence me wondering if he's become so toxic that their tactics just aren't working any more

OverByYer · 01/01/2022 21:15

Th poddcast I linked to, there is an interview with a professor of endocrinology , he says in 30 yrs he has never known a case of anyone suddenly becoming unable to sweat. Occasionally people are born with no sweat glands so PS saying he lost the ability to sweat is BS

OverByYer · 01/01/2022 21:16

PA I mean

SpaceshiptoMars · 01/01/2022 21:16

hence me wondering if he's become so toxic that their tactics just aren't working any more

If that's the case, then the next move is someone leaves a large glass of whisky and a loaded pistol on his desk, and a note to do the honourable thing.

Roussette · 01/01/2022 21:21

Yes, and there's photos out there of Naomi Campbell at his parties, whether she was there because of JE or GM... who knows

HikingforScenery · 01/01/2022 21:22

@Giggorata

We had a girl named Ghislaine at my school. Everyone pronounced it as it is spelt, not Gillaine. Her parents, the teachers, she herself. (misses point of thread)
I no only found out how it’s pronounced yesterday
DeliriaSkibbly · 01/01/2022 21:23

No problem @Puzzledandpissedoff - nuance is hard to convey with text alone.

I suppose the difficulty is producing a reputable doctor who's basically going to lie under oath. Perjury is pretty serious in the US (as it is here) and there it carries a prison sentence of up to 5 years.

The fear with Andrew's legal team must surely be that Ms Giuffre's team are going to dig, and dig deep, with any medical testimony because they sense this is a weak spot. If he can be exposed here as having lied it's going to open a real can of worms.

Same as the Pizza Express alibi. I thought it was a family trip. His own daughter 'cannot recall' the trip. I think, now, that the tactic of pressuring the security team to destroy the records is going to prove bad. An alibi with no evidence is really no alibi at all. No reasonable person is going to accept that his own family won't confirm the alibi - and it seems they won't - they're going to suspect you're just telling lies.

So suddenly two of his defences are looking shaky. But he can't settle either. Even were he so inclined I doubt Ms Giuffre needs the money as she had a civil settlement with Epstein. She wants blood, and I don't blame her.

OverByYer · 01/01/2022 21:23

I can't see NC saying anything, I think she has made a good living from being a 'name' on the party circuit.

Roussette · 01/01/2022 21:29

Even were he so inclined I doubt Ms Giuffre needs the money as she had a civil settlement with Epstein. She wants blood, and I don't blame her

I agree. She wants justice for herself and all the other victims. Aim high with the rich and famous, and maybe the rest will fall into place

Motherdare · 01/01/2022 21:44

Is VG considered an unreliable/unsympathetic witness? Is that why she wasn’t called in the Maxwell case? If so, presumably Andrew’s legal team would be focussing on destroying her credibility?

Roussette · 01/01/2022 21:48

They've tried that already.

DeliriaSkibbly · 01/01/2022 21:50

@Motherdare

Is VG considered an unreliable/unsympathetic witness? Is that why she wasn’t called in the Maxwell case? If so, presumably Andrew’s legal team would be focussing on destroying her credibility?
My understanding is that the prosecution didn't see her as unreliable, just that their case was sufficiently strong and that including her would introduce needless complications - including such questions as jurisdiction - which is unhelpful in a jury trial.

The defence love such complications because it increases the burden of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' which is needed for a criminal trial.

derxa · 01/01/2022 22:03

@SpaceshiptoMars

hence me wondering if he's become so toxic that their tactics just aren't working any more

If that's the case, then the next move is someone leaves a large glass of whisky and a loaded pistol on his desk, and a note to do the honourable thing.

Really?
OverByYer · 01/01/2022 22:25

I don't think VG was called for the Gm case because there is the added complication of VG being accused of recruiting and trafficking girls herself, which could result in VG also being charged with offences maybe? Totally understandable why VG did what she did considering her background/ history.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/01/2022 23:09

I think, now, that the tactic of pressuring the security team to destroy the records is going to prove bad

No doubt, but unless someone's prepared to speak up they can still claim it was "an accident" - in other words, as ever, someone else's fault

Of course, if it was enough to swing the civil case against him that's another matter. Like yourself I can't see him settling as that's an effective admission of guilt no matter how they dress it up, but the way things are going I'm not sure what else he can do

Roussette · 02/01/2022 08:26

Does anyone have any idea of a timeline for sentencing?

This...
"Maxwell still faces a second trial on two counts of perjury that were contained in her initial indictment, which allege that she lied under oath about Epstein's sexual abuse as part of accuser Virginia Guiffre's 2016 civil case against the wealthy financier.

The judge previously granted the defense's request to bring the charges into a separate trial. Each perjury charge carries a maximum of five years in prison if she's convicted"

Does this happen before sentencing or after? Also at sentencing, many victims are going to read Victim Impact statements, and VG may well be one of them.

OverByYer · 02/01/2022 11:01

Yes I’m sure I read that VG is giving an impact statement for sentencing

DeliriaSkibbly · 02/01/2022 11:04

The judge hasn't given a sentencing date yet. I don't know why - usually they indicate that once the verdict is in. Perhaps there's a complication or perhaps reports/other considerations are needed.

The perjury charges will be dealt with seperately. If Maxwell is sensible she should just plead guilty because it's hard to see how any other conclusion can be reached. I assume the US has a similar system to the UK whereby an early guilty plea leads to a discount on your sentence.

If she doesn't plead guilty and it goes to trial, she'd simply be brought back from prison to face the charges and held in a local prison if she's not there already. The other option could be a video link, but, again, I don't know if the US offers that in the way the UK does.

It may also be that the judge is waiting to for an appeal from Maxwell's solicitors. Everything I've read suggests they have a steep hill to climb here. They would need to show that one of the judge's directions (eg the granting of anonymity to certain witnesses, but there are other examples) was firstly contrary to law and secondly affected the verdict which was reached. It's very hard to see how they can argue this, but I suppose, by the same token, Maxwell hasn't much to lose.

More than one agency is suggesting she really ought to have cut a plea deal at the start of this. That suggests to me that she does, indeed, know something truly damning. Perhaps she'll talk - it's hard to see, now, what incentive she has to remain silent. The Guardian suggests that if she talks, and has substantial evidence the plea deal could see her prison sentence cut to 10 years, and she'd be out in 7. If she doesn't, she's not going to see the light of day again.

I've mentioned this before, but I wonder if the judge has been asked to delay sentencing for a short time to try to allow a plea deal to be reached.

Roussette · 02/01/2022 11:37

Thank you. That all makes sense

Justheretoaskaquestion91 · 02/01/2022 14:17

@SantaClawsServiette

Agree 100%. The thing is that now it has become apparent that Virginia (as one example) did not really want to engage in sexual activities, this would have gone a lot better for Andrew if he had not been so arrogant and basically held his hands up and said “I did something wrong. I did not realise she was underaged/being trAfficked. Please allow me to apologise”. Or even “I am deeply disgusted to have been friends with a sex trafficker and ashamed of myself. I am sorry”.

Not just “I am too honourable and too good of a friend”. “It’s not even me in these photos” etc. That’s the thing. Like I fully believe some of these men are ignorant (wilfully or otherwise but that’s another debate) of the fact not everyone wants to bang them. But like, now he is aware.

SantaClawsServiette · 02/01/2022 14:39

[quote Justheretoaskaquestion91]@SantaClawsServiette

Agree 100%. The thing is that now it has become apparent that Virginia (as one example) did not really want to engage in sexual activities, this would have gone a lot better for Andrew if he had not been so arrogant and basically held his hands up and said “I did something wrong. I did not realise she was underaged/being trAfficked. Please allow me to apologise”. Or even “I am deeply disgusted to have been friends with a sex trafficker and ashamed of myself. I am sorry”.

Not just “I am too honourable and too good of a friend”. “It’s not even me in these photos” etc. That’s the thing. Like I fully believe some of these men are ignorant (wilfully or otherwise but that’s another debate) of the fact not everyone wants to bang them. But like, now he is aware.[/quote]
Yes, it would certainly have been much better morally.

I wonder sometimes if our legal system makes it more likely that people won't do this kind of thing, not just with this kind of crime but others. Lawyers make it very clear to clients that they should not admit any kind of culpability because it can then be used against them. In some cases that's totally appropriate, in others it seems less so.

DeliriaSkibbly · 02/01/2022 15:03

@SantaClawsServiette This is the disadvantage of the adversarial system we have in place here. Everything is set up to be "X -vs- Y".

The French system, in some ways, I think is better, where the judge oversees things and the fundamental drive with the court and both sides is to arrive at the truth.

Our system works well in that it's clear that your solicitor and barrister are working solely for you and in your best interests. I think it would require a fundamental sea-change in attitudes for this to change in any meaningful way.

Looking at a broader picture, it's unclear to me why we don't adopt the Nordic approach to prison and punishment. Their results, by any standard, are far ahead of ours in terms of low recidivism and so on - and their system costs less than ours into the bargain - but I can well imagine Daily Mail headlines at 'luxury prison sentences' were such a system to be brought in here.

Overall I think too much of the way things are run in the UK are broken, but there are too many vested interests to want things to change. Things like public enquiries don't really change anything. They cost a small fortune, take forever to produce results and the government of the day when the result is delivered is free to ignore it and come out with the usual "Lessons Must Be Learned" pap. Similarly, when, say, a police force is fined what does this really achieve ? It's just moving public money around. Far better to punish the people responsible but that seems to be off the table.

I think the UK is in desperate need of a fundamental reform of so much, but nobody seems willing to grasp this nettle.

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