Class difference - if you're posh

[2022bebetter]

Posh people of MN, help me!

I have married into a very posh family. Not titled posh, but public school. DH and his brothers all lovely.

Sister, MIL and SIL clearly look down on me.

I know I shouldn't care and it's their problem etc but I feel so embarrassed when I clearly get stuff 'wrong'.

SIL in particular, will never correct me but quite often say 'I could never do xx, so tacky / common' knowing full well it's something I do! Most recently I have learnt that I say garage 'wrong'.

Wherever we go, they always dress so similar and I get it 'wrong'.

Obviously the easiest tip is not to care, but any advice from posh MNetters would be so gratefully received.

Fridafever

I think what I’m mainly getting from this thread is that most of mumsnet think it’s impossible for upper class people to be unpleasant. The forelock tugging is absolutely hilarious.

Ibane

Yup. UC people are just as likely to be a shower of bastards as anyone else, regardless of their fabled dog-hair-covered tweeds and battered estates.

I am genuinely astonished by the starstruck, forelock-tugging, feudalist idealism on this thread.

Some uc are lovely and some are complete counts (😉).

You can get nice and nasty, snobby and unsnobby within the same family. It depends on their personalities, values, intelligence level etc.

This quaint idea that real posh people have impeccable manners, put everyone at ease, don’t care about status is hogwash.

Some are super obsessed with class, money, privilege, elitism, knowing people who are people, and making people who are not people feel small. They care about class because it’s their social trump card.

@Bollocks2Covid the SIL undoubtedly has room (a whole room) for a pony but would she know how to look after one with hooves and a tail.

I know people.from the East End (would have been 20s/30s in the early 80s) who are natural gentlemen and ladies and people who attended Eton and St Mary's who are utterly vile and snobs to boot. And vice versa.

My goodness try not to give the silly mares the time of day - they sound like snobs of the highest order. Women with money but not much class.

Carry on just being the person your husband married and ignore their ridiculous speech affectations. Just because they have money and had a private education doesn’t make them any better than you.

As a family we still have the occasional laugh about my sister’s experience at a meet the family dinner at her then boyfriend’s house. She arrived home, having dumped him on the way back, with steam almost coming out of her ears full of indignation that his mother before the food was served explained to her in almost words of one syllable which cutlery to use with each course, the implication being that she would be out of her depth with such an array of it on the table.

@DixieSun

Start calling SIL Mrs Bucket or Hyacinth.

Every time. "Alright Mrs Bucket, yes Hyacinth"

Rugby is an odd choice for just girls btw.

Agree. Too thick for Cheltenham or too poor for Benenden?

DH is from an aristocratic family.

I’m from a normal middle class family.

I just ask him for tips and pointers eg place settings and meal etiquette. If we’re going to a family event I dress in a similar style to MIL, she’s always happy to help if asked. DH will discreetly remind me if I use the wrong plate. I try to read the room and copy.

Nobody has ever made me feel lower class than them though. Class is never mentioned. They should be pleased you make their DS happy, not obsessed with what school you went to or what class you’re from.

The reality is that they are insecure, nouveau riche middle class with aspirations to being seen and accepted as upper-middle or 'U'.

Nothing particularly wrong with that in general (though it's ripe for comedy) but going about it in this nasty way is a) horrible and b) in fact completely counter-productive as it marks them out as exactly what they are in the eyes of everyone they'd want to fit in with.

Another reality is that they could very easily be made to feel the way they make you feel by the truly 'U', and I would enjoy seeing it.

I shouldn't try to change yourself to fit with them, not least because you will never achieve it. That isn't because you are incapable of studying the whole class system very hard and understanding ask the 'rules' (though it's very difficult and there will almost always remain little 'tells') but because they don't want you to and will never be satisfied and let you into the 'club'. They want you to be someone they can patronise and look down on in order to cement their own social standing in their own head. No matter how well you imitate them, they will always find or invent something to single out to make the point that you are different.

If you're interested in all this from an anthropological point of view (and it really is fascinating!) may I recommend 'Watching The English' by Kate Fox? If you want to learn enough that you don't feel wrong-footed by unknown common 'rules' (and I sympathise with that - like learning local customs when abroad just so you roughly know what's what) I'd start with old copies of Debretts guides.

I totally understand how difficult this must be for you. As if unwelcoming in laws aren't enough in any family. I'm not posh but have experienced and seen examples of such petty behaviour. My conclusion is that you simply have to become more confident and be proudly and unapologetically yourself. Someone may know exactly which plate and fork to use but if they don't have good manners and behave graciously towards EVERYONE, there's no point. The treatment you're receiving shows poor manners at best. They are simply rude. Please don't ever feel the need to sink to that level. Just be yourself and you'll be accepted and loved for it.

If you want to learn about dinner table etiquette then read up on it and anything else you think will help you.

Being privately educated, pretentious and rude should not be conflated with being "posh".

@TatianaBis

Fridafever

I think what I’m mainly getting from this thread is that most of mumsnet think it’s impossible for upper class people to be unpleasant. The forelock tugging is absolutely hilarious.

Ibane

Yup. UC people are just as likely to be a shower of bastards as anyone else, regardless of their fabled dog-hair-covered tweeds and battered estates.

I am genuinely astonished by the starstruck, forelock-tugging, feudalist idealism on this thread.

Some uc are lovely and some are complete counts (😉).

You can get nice and nasty, snobby and unsnobby within the same family. It depends on their personalities, values, intelligence level etc.

This quaint idea that real posh people have impeccable manners, put everyone at ease, don’t care about status is hogwash.

Some are super obsessed with class, money, privilege, elitism, knowing people who are people, and making people who are not people feel small. They care about class because it’s their social trump card.

Completely agree. I’m taken aback by the extent of class deference on this thread. It explains a lot about the state of politics in this country.

Get your grammar right.

It’s not “if I was you...” which I’ve seen written here. It’s “if I were you...”

To me, correct grammar sets people apart.

Completely agree. I’m taken aback by the extent of class deference on this thread. Always the same on MN - the "proper UCs" are seen by some as educated with impeccable grammar, manners, almost saintly in their modesty and anyone who professes to be UC and doesn't appear to be saintly in all things is clearly not really UC at all.

@poissonrouge1

Get your grammar right.

It’s not “if I was you...” which I’ve seen written here. It’s “if I were you...”

To me, correct grammar sets people apart.

I think this is true when I see people saying “I made dinner for DH and I” thinking using “I” makes them sound smarter but is actually used incorrectly. Even worse, misuse of “myself”

Is this a genuine situation? Your OP seems unconvincing

Perhaps it’s the way you express yourself in the post. Maybe you are piling it on!

@poissonrouge1

Get your grammar right.

It’s not “if I was you...” which I’ve seen written here. It’s “if I were you...”

To me, correct grammar sets people apart.

Agreed.

These pointers may help.you to copy and fit in better with them

Why on earth would OP want to copy these people and lower herself to their level?

Obviously I meant 'If I was you ....:

You meant, "If I were you,"

😊

As PP have said, genuinely posh people have the LOVELIEST manners in the world and try to make everyone feel good. So these people are just twats. 😆

The table manners thing I can understand - I'd feel a bit on the back foot if I didn't know which knife to use. Like that scene in Pretty Woman. Why not get your DH to run through it all with you? Or find a YouTube video on it? It's really simple. I find the glasses the most confusing. I never know which one is for which drink.

I'd probably sneak off and get some deportment/etiquette lessons from a finishing school. Just to learn the basics. And then read Jilly Cooper's books on class.

I wouldn't change my pronunciation though. I say "garridge" and have never made a posh person faint.

That's not being posh, that's being hurtful and pathetic...

In fact they are showing a complete lack of class.

Ignore them.

As PP have said, genuinely posh people have the LOVELIEST manners in the world and try to make everyone feel good.

This really isn’t true. Some are lovely, some are complete arses, same as any other group.

I’m taken aback by the extent of class deference on this thread. It explains a lot about the state of politics in this country.

Depressingly it really does. It’s the way it’s played as though it’s a clever trump card as well. Actually any poster breathlessly declaring all posh people are lovely and humble and would never judge a soul quite clearly hasn’t spent much time in that sort of society.

I once heard an interview with the editor of Debretts and he was asked about mistakes in listings. He said that the people that mattered didn't care and the people who cared didn't matter.

Read Jilly Cooper's "Class"- it is very funny if a bit dated. You'll recognise your husband's family and it won't be in the upper class bit either. She does explain why fish knives are seen as not upper class - if you inherited your silver from decently far back in family, fish knives hadn't yet been invented.

Rather upper class English people also have a thing about avoiding proper French pronunciation of French words or names like Beauchamp being pronounced Beecham and segue being pronounced "segway". Despite the Norman conquest, any fake Frenchification is frowned on - like hitting the second syllable in garage or saying serviette instead of napkin.

Muted colours, natural fibres and dowdy should sort out the clothes.

I know people say you should be yourself. I can understand you want to fit in though but really they do sound awful.

@MistyGreenAndBlue

SIL in particular, will never correct me but quite often say 'I could never do xx, so tacky / common'

No member of the true upper crust would ever utter these words. She's clearly no better than she ought to be

This. It really is very common indeed to go around telling people that what they do is common.

@AwaitingJudy

The reality is that they are insecure, nouveau riche middle class with aspirations to being seen and accepted as upper-middle or 'U'.

Nothing particularly wrong with that in general (though it's ripe for comedy) but going about it in this nasty way is a) horrible and b) in fact completely counter-productive as it marks them out as exactly what they are in the eyes of everyone they'd want to fit in with.

Another reality is that they could very easily be made to feel the way they make you feel by the truly 'U', and I would enjoy seeing it.

I shouldn't try to change yourself to fit with them, not least because you will never achieve it. That isn't because you are incapable of studying the whole class system very hard and understanding ask the 'rules' (though it's very difficult and there will almost always remain little 'tells') but because they don't want you to and will never be satisfied and let you into the 'club'. They want you to be someone they can patronise and look down on in order to cement their own social standing in their own head. No matter how well you imitate them, they will always find or invent something to single out to make the point that you are different.

If you're interested in all this from an anthropological point of view (and it really is fascinating!) may I recommend 'Watching The English' by Kate Fox? If you want to learn enough that you don't feel wrong-footed by unknown common 'rules' (and I sympathise with that - like learning local customs when abroad just so you roughly know what's what) I'd start with old copies of Debretts guides.

As a foreigner with British in-laws, I loved reading "Watching the English". It has helped me so, so much in navigating the class system in the UK (which I detest, by the way).

OP, please don't let them make you feel inferior. But please, do read the excellent and hugely entertaining book (if only to see where they mess up themselves!).