WWYD heart attack and no ambulance?

[1wokeuplikethis]

This is what happened to our family today. My dad had a heart attack, I phoned 999 and I was put on hold. I’ve heard about this but never thought it actually happens. When I finally got through they said an ambulance would take 2hrs so I can wait or take him myself. Nearest hospital is 30mins away, so I needed my husband to drive so I could be there if dad went unconscious but seriously, WHAT DO YOU DO? I thought, the shop nearby has a defibrillator outside, should I take that? But I don’t know if you can take them. It was busy A roads the whole journey with speed cameras and every light was red- do you go through them? If dad had gone unconscious in the car, do you stop and pull him out on the wet road to do CPR? Carry on to hospital?

I felt so helpless. You always think an ambulance is round the corner but what if it isn’t and you’re just an average joe with no medical knowledge?

Please please tell me, what would you do in that circumstance? I was not prepared.

Something similar happened to me earlier this year (not as serious and not family though) A colleague collapsed at work, was writhing around on the floor screaming in agony (totally not normal for him, he’s never been ill or had a day off in 20 years) I rang an ambulance and they said 6 hours!!! So we stuck him in the car and legged it to a&e 30 minutes away. He screamed the entire time and I honestly thought he was dying. We got there, I ran in and they said you’ll have to bring him in, so I had to hunt around for a wheel chair, we lifted him out of the car and pushed him into a&e with him screaming his head off. Honestly it scared the shit out of me!!! He’s fine now but it made me think…and yes, I’d definitely do it again!

call for ridiculous things

Sadly they do that here too… everywhere I’d suspect. I wasn’t exaggerating with that stubbed toe example.

The truth is that no one knows what they would do. Because I have been in several very serious emergencies (fires, medical emergencies, boat accident) and people who are fine normally are basket cases and people who are right twats are great. And you don't know who you'd be.

What I think I hope I'd do... Take the defibrillator. No one's going to sue you. Don't run lights. One of the leading cause of fire fighter deaths in volunteer forces is car accidents. Even people used to it are not immune. Don't pull over because medical care is more important than CPR (one will save someone if they can be saved, the other won't). One in the back with dad, one in the front driving. Person in the back says almost nothing to the driver who should be concentrating on driving. If there was one person, dad in the back and get there as soon as possible.

I'm so sorry OP, it's just awful and there are no real right answers. In the moment everyone does what they do.

I would drive to the hospital. Its 15 minutes away with your foot down and clear traffic. But it's in a very big town so you would be stuffed if it was the morning rush hour.

The problem is that even if you call and say someone is having a heart attack, they can't categorise it as 'heart attack' because they can't diagnose that over the phone. It's categorised as chest pain, which is a category 2 - along with a whole host of other symptoms and complaints, and a load more people calling who also have chest pain. There aren't enough ambulances to cover the number of calls coming in. It's shit, of course, and people who are genuinely having heart attacks shouldn't have to wait 2 hours for an ambulance, but this is unfortunately the way things are at the moment. I can't see it getting better any time soon.

I would have done the same thing in your situation, got Dad in the car and drove as quickly as I could - while still abiding by the laws of the road - to hospital. If he lost consciousness on the way then I'd have called back on 999 as the situation then is obviously more serious.

I'm fairly certain you can't access a defibrillator unless you're calling because somebody is in cardiac arrest, I don't think they'd give you the code to access the defib because you're driving somebody with chest pain to hospital.

Well done OP, an awful situation for you to be in and you got your dad to A&E the fastest way you could. I’m really glad that he is doing ok, which is thanks to you.

A friend of mine called 999 to someone who had something lodged in their throat recently. They were still breathing but with difficulty and nothing was shifting it. The ambulance arrived an hour after they called. It seens that in some areas ambulances are so very short staffed on top of the fact they were already struggling.
OP you’ve been through a really traumatic experience, look after yourself.

But can you take defibrillators that are in a public space? Or do they need to be nearby? We all see them and think oh good, but why don’t we understand anything about them? Why don’t we have adverts on tv and our phones explaining how to use them?

mrsterrypratchett that made me laugh because by your analogy I must be a twat :) but there’s some truth in what you’re saying. I was bossing my husband around because I needed him to drive and get our young kids away and out of the room.

I love the NHS & the treatment we eventually received was second to none but that initial shock and terror and being left alone with no guidance because he was conscious and able to tell me he was having a heart attack, that will never leave me. I’m sorry; I’ve had a wine but I can’t get over it. My beautiful mum died 3 months ago and we just wanted to try and enjoy this week as best as possible and now I feel jealous of me from this time last week who only had that heartache to deal with, let alone dad nearly dying too.

And somebody above has said not to pull over because medical care is more important than CPR. I must just say that early recognition and call for help, and early CPR is vital in giving somebody the best chance of surviving a cardiac arrest. If somebody is in cardiac arrest they should be placed on a flat surface ASAP and CPR should be administered and continued until medical help comes to you where you are and they can take over.

@saltinesandcoffeecups

The operator didn’t stay on the line- she said wait or go

That’s damn near criminal. In my area if something like this can be proven, at a minimum that dispatch would have been fired.

There are procedures in place so in a busy period they won't stay on the line unless they are doing something like giving CPR advice Because while they are on the phone, there's another 10 people trying to get through So they will advise if the condition changes/worsens to call back, and clear the line so they can take another call

Otherwise in "normal" times they will stay on the line if the patient is unstable

The call handler is following procedure so no, they can't be sacked because they will be following exactly what they are told to do. And realistically if there isn't an ambulance, that isn't the call handlers fault and there is only so much they can do on the other end of the phone

‘ You always think an ambulance is round the corner ’.

Sorry, but not so.
That’s not been the case (if ever) for such a very long time.

I wish that more members of the public could & would do a basic first aid course, be aware of local defibrillators & how to use them. I’d like to see every school pupil do some form of first aid before they sit GCSEs, or at least be trained in what to do.

I would be tempted to drive someone to A&E myself if the ambulance arrival seems too far away, BUT not so if they were injured as I might make everything so much worse.

I hope your dad makes a full & speedy recovery, & that this distressing experience for you is now in the past.

Defibrillators in public places are in boxes locked with security codes. When somebody calls 999 and tells the call assessor that somebody is in cardiac arrest/they're unconscious with ineffective breathing, the call assessor will be able to see on their screen where the nearest public access defibrillator is and if there is one nearby and there is somebody able to go and collect it while somebody else is performing CPR, then the call assessor can provide the code to access the defib. They can't just be taken out by anybody.

This is extremely easy for me because I have actually worked with the NHS out of hours and I’ve been on hold many a time trying to get through to 999.

My advice is always if you can and it’s safe take the patient to hospital yourself. Blame your government for this.

OP I think you did the right thing
If you are driving and they go unconscious then hands free ring back 999 and update them. But then you have to stay where you are in the car because the ambulance can't drive after you so if they went unconscious a minute away, I would carry on driving

A defib can be moved, the box is just the sort of storage/safe place for it so yes you could take it with you

@saltinesandcoffeecups why would the operator be fired? If they don’t need to provide CPR instructions then the call is disconnected unless the situation worsened in which case the caller is told to call back.

You can’t stay on the phone just to have a conversation. There’s other calls that need answered

I hope this bit is just incorrect wording but I need to bring attention to it

If dad had gone unconscious in the car, do you stop and pull him out on the wet road to do CPR?

NO. You do not do CPR on someone who is unconscious. Someone who is inconscious needs put in the recovery position. CPR is only to be performed on someone who is not breathing, which is a very different thing.

If someone is not breathing then, yes, you get them onto a firm surface and perform CPR immediately - don't worry about mouth breaths, chest compressions are the important bit. Even if you think they have a major injury, risk of paralysis, perform CPR if no breathing. It is vital. If you have someone else with you, swap out with them regularly, CPR is incredibly taxing.

I'm so sorry your dad is unwell, and that you've been faced with this horrendous wait. I hope he makes a full recovery.

@UniversalAunt

‘ You always think an ambulance is round the corner ’.

Sorry, but not so.
That’s not been the case (if ever) for such a very long time.

I wish that more members of the public could & would do a basic first aid course, be aware of local defibrillators & how to use them. I’d like to see every school pupil do some form of first aid before they sit GCSEs, or at least be trained in what to do.

I would be tempted to drive someone to A&E myself if the ambulance arrival seems too far away, BUT not so if they were injured as I might make everything so much worse.

I hope your dad makes a full & speedy recovery, & that this distressing experience for you is now in the past.

They should. Totally off topic but even something like if blood is spurting out, put pressure on it. Put a burn under cool water In 11 years of 999 calls I never once had anyone who had thought to put water on a burn. Not one Children are really really capable if you let them and should know how to ring 999, give their address and do basic first aid and CPR. I once asked a child if they had anything bright so an ambulance could see them and he whipped out not only a foil blanket but a high viz from his bag

I’m so sorry this has happened, it must’ve been very scary.

This area is desperate for student paramedics, I might look in to signing up. Mid forties, and I’d need someone to look after my disabled son whilst I was at work, but they need more people, and it is something I could very well do. 🤔

I'm sorry about your Dad. I would have driven to hospital. I did this a couple of months ago - we're a 10 min drive from the nearest hospital - without actually thinking to call - no time- made it to A&E - hair raising ride through red lights and bus lanes. Th ambulance drivers we met said I'd be able to claim the traffic fines back with the hospital discharge letter - we are still waiting re: this. We were very lucky that my husband survived this attack. He is only 56 and it's been a massive shock to the system. We were never prosecuted for the traffic offences.

@MaybeHeIsMyCat well, yes, if the ambulance won’t be arriving for hours I’m sure there isn’t a reason to be on the phone.

But as I specified in my comment I was referring to my area where 4-9 minutes isn’t sometimes enough time get all of the callers information and repeat instructions to the caller.

In the few instances I’ve called the emergency number, I’ve had to tell them I needed to hang up as the ambulance was pulling up and I needed to get them to the patient.

@1wokeuplikethis, I have just seen your post.
My condolences for the loss of your mother so recently, & now the worry & concern about your father. You have been through so much recently, I hope that you find some time for yourself to rest & reflect.

Hope you're feeling better soon op, must have been an horrendous day for you all round

Same happened when my dad was having a stroke foolishly I waited thought strokes were priority, 2 hours we waited a very anxious 2 hours to get a call back to say no ambulance available luckily it was a Tia still advised to drive him to get him checked over .2 weeks later he had what we found out later was a serious stroke the tia was the warning .
I didn’t wait 2nd time just got him in car he said he had pins and needles in leg that wasn’t going and couldn’t feel it , don’t know what I would of done had he turned unconscious! I just know with a stroke the quicker treatment starts the better the outcome .
Had call handler say with son going to hang up now as calls waiting any change while waiting ring back .Honestly now would never wait not in current situation if patient breathing just not worth it and in real emergency would just drive through every red light with hazards safely as poss.

Request the fire service.

Their 'first aid' training is to a very high standard and they carry de fib machines.

I hope your Dad is okay, OP - how traumatic and scary. I'm so sorry.

I do wish that the posters on MN who think Covid is a conspiracy, and vaccines don't work, and we shouldn't ever have a lockdown to protect the NHS, could read this thread, though. Because it's always been about not allowing the NHS to become overwhelmed so that everyone can get the urgent care they need. Staffing and care in the NHS at the moment is on its knees with Covid, Brexit, and Tory cuts and austerity for the last ten years.

I hope the people who thought Brexit would be great for the NHS, and who voted Tory, could also read this and see what the real life repercussions of their political decisions are for real people.

Hugs to you, OP, and your lovely dad.

@saltinesandcoffeecups

Is this what it's like everywhere atm?

I know the favorite pastime here is to mock US healthcare. But our wait times average 4-9 minutes regardless of the type of call (stubbed toe, strokes, heart attacks, to picking up gran after a fall) for an ambulance.

I honestly can’t imagine counting ambulance wait times in hours.

To be fair, I've never experienced (or know anyone that has) ambulance wait times longer than minutes.