WWYD heart attack and no ambulance?

[1wokeuplikethis]

This is what happened to our family today. My dad had a heart attack, I phoned 999 and I was put on hold. I’ve heard about this but never thought it actually happens. When I finally got through they said an ambulance would take 2hrs so I can wait or take him myself. Nearest hospital is 30mins away, so I needed my husband to drive so I could be there if dad went unconscious but seriously, WHAT DO YOU DO? I thought, the shop nearby has a defibrillator outside, should I take that? But I don’t know if you can take them. It was busy A roads the whole journey with speed cameras and every light was red- do you go through them? If dad had gone unconscious in the car, do you stop and pull him out on the wet road to do CPR? Carry on to hospital?

I felt so helpless. You always think an ambulance is round the corner but what if it isn’t and you’re just an average joe with no medical knowledge?

Please please tell me, what would you do in that circumstance? I was not prepared.

@WirKindervomBahnhofZoo

I guess I just thought that when you call an ambulance it's for an emergency. Some people obviously know how to play the system. Maybe it's these people that we need to start looking at and holding to account?

That's an understandable reaction but I think the big problem is the lack of resources in the support services. A lot people who misuse the emergency services actually need other forms of support which aren't easily available or at all. Money should be going into the mental health services, social services (adult and child), the availibility of GPs, walk-in minor injury units, general our of hours support etc.

For the person with back pain, were they receiving adequate pain management/treatment, physical therapy etc so they had confidence with how to deal with flare ups? i.e. could support over the last few months have prevented them from getting to the point of call 999?

For the elderly, falls are a big problem and are often just a case that they've fallen and can't get up again. They just need someone to pick them back up and maybe a GP to take a look over them, they don't actually need the expertise of a paramedic or transport to hospital. Again this comes down to the availability of other services, like GPs being available for home visits or access to Fall Preventative and Response Services. Also family can help by taking responsibility of looking at any hazards around their elderly familiy members home, ensuring their glasses prescription is up-to-date etc. Or thinking about how they would go about picking their relative back up if they do fall and are otherwise unhurt, rather than automatically calling 999.

Always keep aspirin in the house.
A defibrillator is very easy to use. It tells you what to do. You honestly can't make a mistake.

I think selfish older people use the ambulance service a lot as they think they are owed it. So many people call 999 when they don't need. Can't people make their own way to the hospital?

You know nothing about ambulance triage do you? You can't just phone up & say 'I want an ambulance. I'm 82 you know' and one blues & twos it's way down there. My dad had to wait 4 hours on a cold floor with a broken hip. Age that was on a quiet day.

With the increase in single-person households, it’s only going to get harder, as more people won’t have anyone else living in the same property to notice if someone needs help.

@Buildingthefuture

Something similar happened to me earlier this year (not as serious and not family though) A colleague collapsed at work, was writhing around on the floor screaming in agony (totally not normal for him, he’s never been ill or had a day off in 20 years) I rang an ambulance and they said 6 hours!!! So we stuck him in the car and legged it to a&e 30 minutes away. He screamed the entire time and I honestly thought he was dying. We got there, I ran in and they said you’ll have to bring him in, so I had to hunt around for a wheel chair, we lifted him out of the car and pushed him into a&e with him screaming his head off. Honestly it scared the shit out of me!!! He’s fine now but it made me think…and yes, I’d definitely do it again!

What was wrong with him?

It is frightening and sounds like you managed well. It has been the same for years. I've been chronically ill and with my heart a cat 1 blue light ambulance took 2.5hrs. Second time a first response car went against protocol and drove me in as we couldn't wait and third time mum drove and hoped I stayed awake. We live 30-40mins from a hospital in not so rural surrey!

Ambulance service in crisis, totally overstretched. Britain is becoming 3rd world.

@PostMenPatWithACat

I think that's really interesting *@Badbadbunny*. When I had my accident I asked in exasperation why I wasn't taken to the 2nd closest hospital (1st was 2.5 miles from the scene of the accident and 2nd 4 miles) where there was a 24/7 orthopaedic registrar service and was told that it was an ambulance service/NHS protocol that unless the patient was a major trauma case, they had to be taken to the nearest hospital with a 24 hour ED regardless of its limitations.

We live between two hospitals and are asked which one we want to go to (parents in late 80s so a semi-regular occurrence) - my DM generally chooses the bigger one slightly further away. Sometimes the paramedics will say one is busier than the other though they don't always know.

So sorry you had to go through that OP . You were so brave and responded so well

@iklboodolphrednosedpaindear

I think selfish older people use the ambulance service a lot as they think they are owed it. So many people call 999 when they don't need. Can't people make their own way to the hospital?

You know nothing about ambulance triage do you? You can't just phone up & say 'I want an ambulance. I'm 82 you know' and one blues & twos it's way down there. My dad had to wait 4 hours on a cold floor with a broken hip. Age that was on a quiet day.

I didn't say that. I said older people are using it and being seen when they could just ask a neighbour or family member. It's as if they want to be fiercely independent and not lean on family members but don't mind ordering an ambulance as a taxi service

That sounds very scary OP but is sadly the norm these days. It's a matter of luck how soon you get an ambulance on scene.

The contributory problems for the ambulance service are:

Bed blocking - lack of social care provision means people are kept in hospital much longer then necessary, thus tying up ambulances trying to offload patients.

Too much money wasted in the NHS (waaay too many managers), leading to under resourcing. The money wasted is obscene quite frankly.

Covid & Brexit leading to huge staffing issues.

People requesting ambulances when they could probably get themselves to hospital.

The whole healthcare system needs a complete overhaul.

Fwiw I would have driven the patient to hospital. I live rurally, 20 mins from my nearest A&E but this would still have been faster than waiting for hours.

Coming back in to the thread…

OP, I do hope your husband is doing ok.

For the bigger topic, the US has the same problems as you do in the UK, with abuse of the system. My favorite are the ones who call an ambulance, ask to be transported to the closest hospital to their home, and literally refuse treatment at the hospital and walk out. All because they don’t want pay for Uber or a taxi.

We also have the “I need a hug” patients who call when they are lonely or bored. And we have the frequent overdose junkies who shoot up in a public place so someone will call it in.

Most of these people don’t pay for it because of income, so it’s more likely to be written off and paid by taxes. It chaps my cheeks, but it is what it is. On the whole people use it appropriately and when necessary.

I’m ok with it being a paid service mixed with taxpayer funded. There are a lot of other systems in the world besides the US I just can’t comment on them as I don’t have first hand knowledge of how they work. I think there are drawbacks to any system. I guess I’m just shocked at the disparity that you are seeing in yours right now.

I hope you find the answer.

[quote PostMenPatWithACat]@mariannamarianna no I couldn't have made my way to the hospital. I had fallen badly fracturing my wrist which required surgery and a vertebrae. I couldn't get up and although two physios from the practice over the road lifted me into a chair on the pavement - the shop I was next to had steps which I couldn't navigate with only one hand/arm to support myself and there is no way I could have navigated myself into a car.

The ambulance call handlers were spectacular in their unhelpful, little Britain attitude refusing to triage me unless I could tell them which was the worst injury. All I could tell them was that my wrist was deformed and the pain in my back exactly the same as when my L1 had severely fractured five years previously. My T12 had severely fractured. They gave not a shit except for their tick sheet and when a clinician called me he said he'd be dispatching my free ambulance. It was absolutely disgusting and bore all the hallmarks of a mismanaged facility.

It was the first time in more than 60 years I had ever called an ambulance. Funnily enough when I broke my L1 five years previously I was told off for going to A&E in a cab because I should have called an ambulance in the Dr's opinion.

I have an ongoing complaint.

I would have no issue with abusers of the service being fined.[/quote]
And you didn't have a close enough friend or family member to take you??

@mariannamarianna, yes of course I had people who could have taken me. DH came straight down to the village as soon as he was called.

Did you miss the bit of my post where I said I had badly fractured my T12 (that's a vertebrae - part of the spine) and had such a badly fractured wrist I needed surgery. With only one hand to support myself there was no way I could have got into a car.

The ambulance crew were very nice and gave me quite a lot of morphine.

In old MNet parlance, did you mean to be so rude?

Cardiac arrest should be category one and nearest ambulance should be diverted asap

@Georgeskitchen

Cardiac arrest should be category one and nearest ambulance should be diverted asap

It wasn't a cardiac arrest though, heart attack isn't a cardiac arrest so not a category 1

@Georgeskitchen

Cardiac arrest should be category one and nearest ambulance should be diverted asap

Cardiac arrest is when the heart stops beating - the patient will collapse and stop breathing. As the OP described her father as being conscious and able to talk to her, we can safely say he was not in cardiac arrest.

A heart attack might lead to cardiac arrest but it isn't a certainty that the patient will go into cardiac arrest. The BHF has a good page simply explaining the difference.

And you didn't have a close enough friend or family member to take you??

Yes because it's REALLY wise for a medically untrained person to hoof someone with a spinal fracture into the back of a car

I didn't say that. I said older people are using it and being seen when they could just ask a neighbour or family member. It's as if they want to be fiercely independent and not lean on family members but don't mind ordering an ambulance as a taxi service

It STILL doesn't work like that. An ambulance isn't sent out just like that. There's a triage system as many people have tried explaining to you. You can't just phone up & ask for one because you can't be arsed getting a taxi. And even when one does come the paramedics make the decision whether you need hospital or not. You're just ageist. More drunks try phoning ambulances than the elderly. For most older people hospital is the last place they want to be.

That sounds horrific OP. A combination of an inadequately funded service by Tory government, sent into spiral by covid isolation ( likely if you are in London). I wish people would vote for government that invests in such services, not cut them down. It’s a worst nightmare scenario and I hope he is doing ok ( sorry haven’t read whole thread)

@canary1

That sounds horrific OP. A combination of an inadequately funded service by Tory government, sent into spiral by covid isolation ( likely if you are in London). I wish people would vote for government that invests in such services, not cut them down. It’s a worst nightmare scenario and I hope he is doing ok ( sorry haven’t read whole thread)

Trouble is it's not just spending money, it's spending money WISELY. Blair trebled NHS spending but a hell of a lot of it was just wasted and, even worse, he entered into ruinous PFI deals for shiny new hospitals that are financially crippling the NHS for decades.

Badbadbunny how depressing. I suppose someone could argue this current pack of jokers in government have spent lots- though it seems they’ve lined theirs and their mates pockets rather than deliver any further service to the public ( in hospitals, schools, anything !) just stole a lot of taxpayers money on PPE and TaT contracts for their mates. 😡

@1wokeuplikethis that's dreadful, I'm guessing you also do not have volunteers in your area who attend calls like this whilst waiting for an ambulance, an operator would also allocate them.

Using a defib is easy and it talks you through it and tells you what to do, pads need to go slightly across body, toward left shoulder and slightly towards underarm on the right www.bhf.org.uk/how-you-can-help/how-to-save-a-life/defibrillators/how-to-use-a-defibrillator

Defibrillators aren't always required. In fact, they can do more harm. They're meant to shock a heart back into rhythm, not just for someone having a heart attack.

Hope your dad is ok. We had a short first aid course in village when we got a defibrillator arranged by parish council, like you say they are everywhere but noone explains how to use.
I also did a day first aid course recently and we did cpr and used defibrillator. I thought it was good.