Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

[twwindow]

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

I’d love to see the argument as to why allowing biological men in for example woman’s refuges, prisons & rape is in anyway a change fir the better for women

Vladmir, what on earth had Marcus Rashford got to do with being woke. Who said he was woke?

@JohnHuffam1812

"Caring about other people is not woke. But if you're a white man hopping on every black trade by and giving your two cents and obsessing over it then you probably are."

Right, but this plays into a stereotype when the word is used to stop people discussing injustice or any other things. It belittles those who are trying to do things better. For example look at how it was used against the national trust.

I haven't gotten into the word itself, just the mentality of certain people. The word "woke" is generally used to imply disingenuousness I thought. Jumping on a bandwagon for the sake of it, and being outraged at everything minor thing [on behalf of the group in question]

Anyway, as I say, Im just talking about my experience with those who put themselves at the forefront of certain issues. Caring is GOOD when you actually care.

I think Caroline Nokes argues her case really well here and I find it hard to understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/23/why-am-i-being-abused-for-trying-to-improve-gender-recognition-process

Hearing the arguments for both sides is showing one thing. People who claim to care about equality and social justice, rarely do actually care. Those that care, go about their business making real change without fighting the ‘woke’ fight.

@Oblomov21

Vladmir, what on earth had Marcus Rashford got to do with being woke. Who said he was woke?

Sorry, but where have you been?! A lot of people said at the time that the free school meals was woke and woke pandering, just as one example. A quick Google and there's literally loads of articles and quotes on the very first page if you have a look!

She prioritises one group over another
She is naive
So no I don't think she expressed herself in a way that convinced me she's a safe pair of hands

A lot of people said at the time that the free school meals was woke and woke pandering, just as one example.

Precisely. There was a lot of this in the press at the time. Some even criticising him for earning whatever ridiculous amounts of money footballers earn yet having the audacity to care about poor kids. Astonishingly our very own chancellor is a billionaire yet when he removed the £20 uplift despite that being the difference between eating and not for many families the resounding response seemed to be 'well we can't afford to subsidise people who want to sit on their arses all day' or 'don't have kids if you can't afford to feed them'. The man in charge of the nations finances will never even begin to comprehend the struggle between heating and eating but it's Rashford who himself knew poverty that is the problem. Ok.

[quote elodie77]I think Caroline Nokes argues her case really well here and I find it hard to understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/23/why-am-i-being-abused-for-trying-to-improve-gender-recognition-process[/quote]
She says the right words, but it's clear she doesn't understand the issues. Her comment on spousal consent is factually incorrect, the references to "femininity" and "masculinity" are laughable, and her suggestion that it's possible to on the one hand allow anyone to change legal sex and on the other hand retain meaningful single-sex spaces is impossible to implement.

She does, I admit, clearly explain where she is coming from. However, she also clearly demonstrates that she hasn't listened to women's concerns at all.

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I disagree. I think its often used to denigrate people campaigning or talking about injustice.

For example anyone involved with BLM was described as woke, footballers kneeling, climate change campaigners and many more.

Just saying that they are "woke" works as an ad ho and allows their points to be dismissed.[/quote]
I see you point. If it were true it would be the same way that the insults 'terf' and 'transphobic' are used to try and put women with legitimate concerns in the place which best suits males. The way it is used in my circles is to describe people who are performing caring and progression which actually very much being part of the problem. It is an insult used to draw attention to the arrogance which underpins such a position. It might be used differently elsewhere though.

@JohnHuffam1812

"Caring about other people is not woke. But if you're a white man hopping on every black trade by and giving your two cents and obsessing over it then you probably are."

Right, but this plays into a stereotype when the word is used to stop people discussing injustice or any other things. It belittles those who are trying to do things better. For example look at how it was used against the national trust.

So you are using the word stereotype? How does the man live as a woman?

That's five times. If you have no idea how to answer, just say so.

As said in the examples where its been given here ( against the National Trust is another one) its used to dismiss the points as spurious.

@elodie77

I think people who sneer at 'wokery' hitherto have had it pretty good thus don't really want any significant change. It reminds me of that Sainsbury's ad which featured a Black family - it got so many complaints I had to check what faux pas the ad had made - turns out a Black family having dinner is incredibly damaging and outrageous. I think for all it's ills social media has done wonders - I'm able to find and support Black creators rather than only having the options that white gatekeepers have decided suitable.

I agree with all your posts, VladmirsPoutine, and especially the above, ignored by most posters here who are too busy screaming bigoted nonsense.

It is all comes down to this: "I think people who sneer at 'wokery' hitherto have had it pretty good thus don't really want any significant change."

This is actually such a ridiculous conclusion that it has actually amused me. Complaints about that ad were clearly worrying and caused by racism.

That doesn't mean that people who are concerned about wokery are the ones who made the complaints. You also have completely failed to look at this in any objective way - it is males who are gatekeeping access to women's spaces. Any many of them are considering themselves woke. Do you not see the irony of criticising people for something and then doing the same thing yourself in a hugely grand scale?

The people who are objecting to wokery here are mainly women. If you think women had had things good, you are a long way from understanding the problems in society. A very, very, very, very long way.

@JohnHuffam1812

As said in the examples where its been given here ( against the National Trust is another one) its used to dismiss the points as spurious.

So you agree that this it is used in the same way that terf and transphobic are? Do you think we should stop using all those terms in order to enable better conversations?

*This is actually such a ridiculous conclusion that it has actually amused me. Complaints about that ad were clearly worrying and caused by racism.

That doesn't mean that people who are concerned about wokery are the ones who made the complaints. You also have completely failed to look at this in any objective way - it is males who are gatekeeping access to women's spaces. Any many of them are considering themselves woke. Do you not see the irony of criticising people for something and then doing the same thing yourself in a hugely grand scale?

The people who are objecting to wokery here are mainly women. If you think women had had things good, you are a long way from understanding the problems in society. A very, very, very, very long way.*

You're not making much sense but I'm out as this debate is pretty toxic like much of MN at the moment.

"The people who are objecting to wokery here are mainly women. If you think women had had things good, you are a long way from understanding the problems in society. A very, very, very, very long way."

So they are allowed to object to other groups seeking justice and equality?

Again with the "if you think" points, I've never said that. I've said how woke is used in society in general.

Round and round in circles we go.

Round and round in circles we go.

Try answering an actual question.

I have done.

@JohnHuffam1812

Woody Allen hasn't been cancelled. He made a movie a year for the last 10 years, as well as directing theatre and more.

"Artist Jess de Wahls had her products removed from the Royal Academy gift shop after 8 (!) complaints about transphobia."

And the Royal Academy apoligised and put the work back on sale. Not cancelled, mismanaged by the organisation.

The RA should never have cancelled her in the first place. It was only after a public outcry that they were forced to volte face. The people who instigated this did so with the intention that her livelihood be destroyed because of her 'wrongthink'. That they were not successful in this doesn't make their behaviour any less sinister.

I don't think we agree @Whatiswrongwithmyknee which is perfectly fine. But generally speaking in my view - I'm aiming for parity with white women at the very least. Black women are 4/5times more at risk of death during childbirth for example and Black women generally don't get pain relief because they are thought of as being 'strong' can tolerate the pain and so forth. I admit I have a lot to learn. But in the most general sense I don't regard myself a feminist. I really do what I can to support young Black women. The angry black girl /woman trope starts in childhood very early on and white women are perpetrators of aggression towards Black women in this regard in many instances. So I'm ok in my corner. I don't have the energy to go around toilet cubicles inspecting everyone's genitals.

@Datun

Still struggling with that living as a woman answer, JohnHuffam1812?

Is that because you've just given it the first bit of thought you've ever given it, and realised how bloody sexist it is?

Has ‘living as a woman’ question been answered yet? Maybe I missed it as it was posed many pages ago.

@JohnHuffam1812

I have done.

Exactly, but I'd save your breath ad they'd still pretend not to see the posts where people have answered even if they jumped up and bopped them on the nose

as
Not ad!

@elodie77

*This is actually such a ridiculous conclusion that it has actually amused me. Complaints about that ad were clearly worrying and caused by racism.

That doesn't mean that people who are concerned about wokery are the ones who made the complaints. You also have completely failed to look at this in any objective way - it is males who are gatekeeping access to women's spaces. Any many of them are considering themselves woke. Do you not see the irony of criticising people for something and then doing the same thing yourself in a hugely grand scale?

The people who are objecting to wokery here are mainly women. If you think women had had things good, you are a long way from understanding the problems in society. A very, very, very, very long way.*

You're not making much sense but I'm out as this debate is pretty toxic like much of MN at the moment.

Yes, best you leave as you truly don't have the ability to comprehend the issues, and running away is what most of you do when facts get a little too inconvenient.

Black women generally don't get pain relief because they are thought of as being 'strong' can tolerate the pain and so forth