Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

[twwindow]

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

@VladmirsPoutine

Tbh a lot of the people who've been cancelled happen to bizarrely found themselves on the front pages of national newspapers or doing tv studio tours about being cancelled - usually helpfully carrying their latest book about their impending cancellation. Being cancelled seems good work if you can get it.

Are you even human? Do you think Kath Stock enjoyed being hounded out of her job? Or Jess De Wahls? Just for expressing a view about biology? You think this is right, and lucky for them? Do you think JK Rowling is happy with the rape and death threats and publishing of her address and details of her children on line? Would you want this and consider it “good work”?

@bordermidgebite right so then using your definitions a transwoman can never be treated the same as a woman it has to be a separate distinct category.

@VladmirsPoutine

People seem to forget that white Americans had a 400 year head start when doing racial analysis of the U.S. The threads on Mumsnet r.e. BLM and police brutality around George Floyd were brain numbing 'BUt wE aRen'T liKe tHe U.S of Ayy'

Ugh, yes I remember those. That's one of the problems I think - whether it's racism or transphobia - on MN it always comes down to '' but that's the USA, not the UK so it's not the same /doesn't count! '' Course it does! You'd think the world began and ended with the UK in some peoples heads, or that people in the UK can't simultaneously care about the UK AND other countries as well. Kind of like it's some sort of competition, or just because see, they're worse than us so we're OK! Um, no.

Can't believe the drivel op is coming out with. That's not the definition of woke.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Agreed and anyone who offered an alternate opinion was woke and jumping on a bandwagon for their own gain.

There's never been a understandable explanation of what 'living as a woman' means given on these boards from those who are fighting for women's rights to be eroded. Is it stereotypes (i.e what women 'typically' wear/do/say)? I don't wear makeup, or high heels or skirts. Does that mean I don't 'live as a woman' while a transwoman who does these things is living as a woman? Is it to do with sex based discrimination (i.e maternity discrimination, being paid less for the same work as men etc)? Because that seems pretty specific to the female body. Is is gender discrimination (taking on the lions share of childcare/housework/mental load, being talked over during meetings etc)?

It all seems to boil down to what name and pronouns someone gives themselves and what they wear. Which for women who cannot identify out of being a woman and the specific sex discrimination that comes with that, seems pretty risible. As pp's have said, it all boils down to sometimes fairly insulting stereotypes of what a woman is.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Turquoise baubles those questions have all mostly been answered on the thread so not sure why you're saying they're not? Maybe read the thread if you haven't already?

No they haven't. John has either said "the answer is obvious" or "that's a strawman" or "there's a predetermined answer to that" to all of them.

Would you like to either refer to specific posts/posters who actually answer the questions or answer them yourself?

Particularly the one about lesbians (requires only yes or no). You could also have a stab at the definition of "living as a woman". But you won't - you never, as far as I've seen, answer anything.

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@bordermidgebite right so then using your definitions a transwoman can never be treated the same as a woman it has to be a separate distinct category.[/quote]
Yes, now you understand it. A transwoman can never be an actual biological woman.

I disagree with literally every single thing OP has written. It's got nothing to do with woke, neither race nor gender, nor old people challenging things. That's so not being woke. That's not wokeness. You clearly have no idea how some graduates are very woke and entitled.

@Waitwhat23

There's never been a understandable explanation of what 'living as a woman' means given on these boards from those who are fighting for women's rights to be eroded. Is it stereotypes (i.e what women 'typically' wear/do/say)? I don't wear makeup, or high heels or skirts. Does that mean I don't 'live as a woman' while a transwoman who does these things is living as a woman? Is it to do with sex based discrimination (i.e maternity discrimination, being paid less for the same work as men etc)? Because that seems pretty specific to the female body. Is is gender discrimination (taking on the lions share of childcare/housework/mental load, being talked over during meetings etc)?

It all seems to boil down to what name and pronouns someone gives themselves and what they wear. Which for women who cannot identify out of being a woman and the specific sex discrimination that comes with that, seems pretty risible. As pp's have said, it all boils down to sometimes fairly insulting stereotypes of what a woman is.

Which for women who cannot identify out of being a woman and the specific sex discrimination that comes with that, seems pretty risible.

Exactly, trans is a first world issue, an issue of white patriarchal privilege, usually. If only the women in Afghanistan could 'identify out of being a woman'. The fact is biology clearly matters, just look to Afghanistan for evidence of that. Being a biological woman has implications that being a transwoman never ever will.

@Zerogravity

Why is the term "living as a woman" so difficult for you to understand? Because it only makes sense if it relies on (often sexist) stereotypes. Worldwide, the only thing that unites all women is their biology. I don't know what I am expected to have in common with a trans woman. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that I wouldn't have in common with men too.

Quite. 'living as a woman' means absolutely nothing! The only thing we definitely all do the same is menstrate!

Menstruate 🙃

@Longcovid21

Apparently as this thread demonstrates you can slag off old people and still be woke. The irony

Yes, and that completely ignores us boomers who've been fighting racism, homophobia and misogyny since long before many of those crying "woke" were born.

@JohnHuffam1812

Again with the leading questions.

OK. Here's mine back to you. Why is the term "living as a woman" so difficult for you to understand?

If we were to phrase as ," living under a proffered identity" it would suggest an element of active choice on behalf of the transperson, which obviously isn't ideal either.

So where is the compromise ? Can a transwoman never call themselves a woman? Do they always have to apply the prefix?

Oh, for the love of God, John, will you just describe what you think living as a woman means?

Just do it.

No they haven't. John has either said "the answer is obvious" or "that's a strawman" or "there's a predetermined answer to that" to all of them.
Why are you on about just John, I said they have been mostly answered.
I have answered a couple of questions myself.
Others have answered questions too.
The ridiculous whataboutery and made up scenarios to completely unrelated things that weren't even asked in the first place to avoid answering the questions though?
Yes, them rightly not so much.
Do I want to link to them?
Why?
You're capable of reading the thread just as much as anyone else.
Why should I go through the whole thread 30 pages to find quotes just for you to go '' that wasn't an answer '' or do an attempt at gaslighting?
What's the phrase '' gender critical '' people on here say if asked to do something like that?
Oh yes, that's it - Women aren't your support human.
So this one isn't yours either, sorry.

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@bordermidgebite right so then using your definitions a transwoman can never be treated the same as a woman it has to be a separate distinct category.[/quote]
Finally, the penny drops

I thought the trans issue was virtually 50/50 not just a "patriarchy" thing.

JohnHuffam1812

How does a man 'live as a woman'?

living as a woman' means absolutely nothing! The only thing we definitely all do the same is menstrate!
Not all women menstruate!
Unless you literally mean that those of us who do literally do it the same way?!

@NoNotMeNoSiree

living as a woman' means absolutely nothing! The only thing we definitely all do the same is menstrate! Not all women menstruate! Unless you literally mean that those of us who do literally do it the same way?!

Oh sorry yes ok. I got nothing then 😄

@Datun

JohnHuffam1812

How does a man 'live as a woman'?

You know what the answer to this will be don’t you? ‘But your phrasing your question in a way that gets you the answer you want’ or ‘but that’s a strawman argument’ or ‘depends what you mean by living as’. Honestly, it’s hilarious how the ‘yeah but, no but, crowd will do all they can to dismiss the obvious - all because it makes them sound progressive:

I have read the thread.

I have not seen a definition of "living as a woman" which doesn't involve stereotypes.

I have seen the refusal to answer the "is a lesbian transphobic for rejecting dick".

I have seen the insistence that transpeople have very hard lives, but no evidence of this. I have never seen figures that prove that transwomen are in any more danger from men than women are. And yet John, in particular, and the usual suspects are insistent that not only have all these things been answered many times, but that questioning the answers is whataboutery.

If you want to post me a specific question, about anything, I will give you an answer. I won't say "that's a ridiculous question, that's been answered, that's irrelevant". Because that's no way to have a discussion.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

living as a woman' means absolutely nothing! The only thing we definitely all do the same is menstrate! Not all women menstruate! Unless you literally mean that those of us who do literally do it the same way?!

This is a good example of when you have been arguing for so long, you forget what you were arguing for. And just try and refute what others are saying.

@JohnHuffam1812

I thought the trans issue was virtually 50/50 not just a "patriarchy" thing.

Sorry, what?

Women don't all menstruate though.
What's wrong with pointing that out?