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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

999 replies

twwindow · 27/12/2021 20:18

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

OP posts:
JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 15:31

Its funny that people here keep speaking on behalf of communities just like they accuse that monolithic group "the woke" of doing.

In the summer when the England football team were kneeling and being accused of being woke and virtue signalling ( a group which has a good number of black people in it) people didnt want to to listen to the explanations. The BLM movement is led by members of the black community too, but again dismissed in a similar way.

Maybe you only listen to those who confirm your bias?

Blibbyblobby · 28/12/2021 15:42

@JohnHuffam1812

Its funny that people here keep speaking on behalf of communities just like they accuse that monolithic group "the woke" of doing.

In the summer when the England football team were kneeling and being accused of being woke and virtue signalling ( a group which has a good number of black people in it) people didnt want to to listen to the explanations. The BLM movement is led by members of the black community too, but again dismissed in a similar way.

Maybe you only listen to those who confirm your bias?

Which people John - can you give some examples? I think I have been very clear about why I, as a female person, believe my voice matters when it comes to the impact on female people of redefining womanhood as a mental state. I’ve also said my experience of being subject, as a female person, to structural sexism makes me sympathetic to the experiences of other marginalised groups. I don’t believe I have spoken for them, nor indeed would I expect those “groups” to even speak with one voice or even self-identify ^as* a group.

Are you, perhaps, seeing the many different voices on this thread as somehow “the same” simply because they disagree with you?

Felsham · 28/12/2021 15:45

Because the vast majority of it is virtue signalling. And their judgement of others who don't comply is awful.

Eleganz · 28/12/2021 15:48

I prefer to judge things individually based on the quality of the argument. Sometimes that means I'm "woke" and sometimes it means I am "anti-woke".

There are ideologues on both sides of everything and then are generally as bad as each other.

JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 15:49

@Blibbyblobby

Read the thread there are plenty of examples of strawmen and loaded questions from last night.

With the examples regarding the communities you gave some examples yourself whilst accusing the 'woke" (as if there is some monolith with exactly the same views) of choosing to be spokes people or whatever. Yet I gave the example of how woke was used to attack groups that did represent the communities they come from.

As said its just a

bordermidgebite · 28/12/2021 15:51

You accused me of statements when I was just asking what exactly you were thinking because of your lack of clarity

ThrowawayBerna · 28/12/2021 15:56

'Woke' was appropriated by the American left in a backslapping high-five to itself Hmm , then as a pejorative, by others. I prefer the term Critical Social Justice activism and think it not helpful to use, but the genie may be out of the bottle in that respect.

Highly recommended as a primer on 'theory':

Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity - And Why this Harms Everybody

Paraphrased from an interview in Quillette :

Objective knowledge is inaccessible and what we consider knowledge is actually just a cultural construct that operates in the service of power.

Dominant groups in society—wealthy, white, heterosexual, western men—get to decide what is and isn’t legitimate knowledge and this becomes dominant discourses which are then accepted by the general population who perpetuate oppressive power dynamics like white supremacy, patriarchy, imperialism, heteronormativity, cisnormativity, ableism, and fatphobia.

The critical theorists exist to deconstruct these discourses and make their oppressive nature visible. This results in the breakdown of boundaries and categories through which we understand things like emotion and reason, fact and fiction, male and female.

[Critical theorists] also produce a profound cultural relativism and a neurotic focus on language and language policing as well as a rejection of individuality and humanism in favor of identity politics. This is a problem because of the resulting threats to freedom of belief and speech, the divisive tribalism and the rejection of science, reason and liberalism.

CSJ activists can't absorb that there are other ways to pursue the same goals so lump liberals in with e.g. sexists and racists etc. because we disagree about methods. It has a real 'Year Zero' 'struggle session' vibe and while theory is valuable academically, I reject it outright when it is positioned as the dominant approach.

TurquoiseBaubles · 28/12/2021 16:08

Do we need to make a list of all the questions John isn't answering?

Is it transphobic for a lesbian to refuse to have sex with a transwoman?
Is there any evidence for transpeople being at greater risk of crime (as in actual harmful crime, not hurt feelings)?
What is the definition of "living as a woman"?
Who are the posters saying "all transwomen are potential sex offenders"? Unless of course he means that they are all potential sex offenders in the same way as all men are potential sex offenders, and there is no way of women knowing who is who.
What are the "challenges of life that are faced by those who are trans" that are "far greater than any possible benefit that could be gained from just "deciding" to say they are male/female"?

I don't suppose there is any point in asking though, as it's obvious he hasn't read any of the links (or if he has he either doesn't understand the figures, or is refusing to believe anything), and his answer to any question is to say that the question isn't relevant, or there isn't a right answer, or it's a strawman, or whatever.

Was it not for the lurkers I would say this thread was a waste of time, but it's quite enlightening really!

JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 16:14

"Do we need to make a list of all the questions John isn't answering"

I do like the way you have framed some of there to get pre determined answers.

Is there any evidence of transpeople being at Greater risk of a crime? Yes. Provided. The fact that you then belittle it by saying tings about hurt feelings exposes you.

The definition of living as a woman? Pretty obvious I think.

The posters seeing all transwomen as potential sex offenders? Read through the thread they are there.

What are the challenges of life faced by those that are trans? Go read up on it.

LolaSmiles · 28/12/2021 16:19

I've got no issue with people who genuinely care about systemic injustices and live their lives trying to do their bit to improve the world.

I do object to self-indulgent narcissists piggy backing on whichever cause is in fashion, getting on their soap boxes, liberally yelling 'PRIVILEGE', talking garbage on social media and attacking anyone they deem guilty of wrong think.

Working for years trying to make society better and challenging difficult issues such as institutional racism, misogyny and poverty is difficult and boring.
Unfortunately there's a group of people who think yelling on twitter, no-platforming and trying to get people sacked is activism.

OvaHere · 28/12/2021 16:20

The definition of living as a woman? Pretty obvious I think.

I don't think it's obvious. Please spell it out in a way that doesn't rely on gender stereotyping.

SantaClawsServiette · 28/12/2021 16:22

@VladmirsPoutine

Or look at the way words to describe groups are called out when there is in fact no consensus within communities about them. I've seen this with several communities where there is significant differences among members about what words to use and which ought to be used

Yes. I'm always suspicious of these people. To simplify it it's like 1000 black people could tell you that non-black people using the n-word is racist. But one black person will tell you their white best friend calls them the n-word all the time and it's a sign of love. Much like Robin DA - there's alot of money to be made for people who position themselves strategically. I don't doubt that there are some Black people who believe racism doesn't exist or that it hasn't had an adverse affect on them - it then however becomes an issue when they invariably get fast tracked to prominent positions and get media slots to proudly proclaim how the UK is a beacon of tolerance. On a side note I have a friend who I went to uni with who's now very popular among certain right-wing circles because she parrots their schtick but more importantly she's a single Black mother so basically their golden goose. Only one of us owns a house, a holiday apartment and 2 range rovers yet we both studied the same thing and had similar career trajectories. I should have been more savvy. I'm going off on a tangent but the problem with doing that is that much like Shaun Bailey found, you'll inevitably be the sacrificial lamb to keep the ship afloat.

I actually don't think the "n-word" and that particular controversy is a very typical example. It is and always has been a slur, even when used commonly or by people who didn't hear other words used much, and it's used in a very specific way within the black community. There are some things that can be discussed, I know plenty of black peopel who don't think it should be used that way, and I think some people find it honestly confusing if they have a fairly simple approach to language. But that's not most people.

What is much more typical are communities like Native Americans, or words like Gypsy, where you have real live discussions and also a wide variety of usages in the community. Or alternately, words that were at one time considered fine or even preferable but which have fallen out of fashion because they were associated with old people.

One of the more bizarre interactions of this type I've witnessed was a group of women determined to call out racism claiming that when elderly people used words that were now archaic but had previously been the preferred language, they needed to be brought up to speed, that once they knew better they should do better. The question of who would actually be harmed, or helped by this in the black community was not part of the question, nor was any historical discussion around why the preferred word had changed (in this case it was mainly something decided by activists and continued to be used by older black Americans for a long time, though in decreasing numbers.)

Or similarly, my neighbour's daughter told she was using a racist word by a teacher for saying Indian, which she had learned from her father, a Native American man, who wasn't especially politically active and really didn't care about that kind of thing.

I don't know if I've personally met anyone who doesn't think racism exists, particularly not anyone black. But I do think there are significant differences in what different people think racism really is, what causes it, whether certain things are examples of it. I used Kendi as an example for a reason, he is typical of the id politics view - every disparity you can show between white and non-white people is racism, in his view. That certainly isn't the view of everyone in the black community but it does not at all mean they think racism doesn't exist.

There can also be such huge differences in views on particular subjects - look at the criticisms Adolph Reed makes about BLM and how they approach police killings in the US - supposedly the whole reason for their existence. What he says, having crunched the numbers, is that their analysis is mostly wrong, and that means that their understanding of why it happens is wrong, and their proposed solutions won't work. That's not a refusal to recognize racism, that's being insistent on actually looking at the specific data and understanding it. Similarly he's published a lot about the question of understanding disparities between groups and how that has to happen for it to give statistically valid information - is that denying racism? It conflicts directly with the id pol view.

Your point about advantage is interesting and I think that happens, but I would argue not only in one direction. That's also one of Reed's arguments - that as the black middle class grew in the US, their interests shifted and became much more closely tied to those of the rest of the middle class, and no longer very attached to those of the poor, of any race. So that's why for example he would say you get middle class activists pushing defunding police while the poor tend to want more but better policing in their communities. But often the voices of black middle class activists are the ones that are platformed as representing teh black perspective.

Anyway - this is the problem with wokeness - it denies the possibility of discussions on topics like this.

ForagingForMullberries · 28/12/2021 16:23

@JohnHuffam1812

"Do we need to make a list of all the questions John isn't answering"

I do like the way you have framed some of there to get pre determined answers.

Is there any evidence of transpeople being at Greater risk of a crime? Yes. Provided. The fact that you then belittle it by saying tings about hurt feelings exposes you.

The definition of living as a woman? Pretty obvious I think.

The posters seeing all transwomen as potential sex offenders? Read through the thread they are there.

What are the challenges of life faced by those that are trans? Go read up on it.

All male-bodied people are potential sex offenders. Why do you think we have separate spaces for women away from men?
Blibbyblobby · 28/12/2021 16:32

The definition of living as a woman? Pretty obvious I think.

It really really isn't, at least not to those of us who until very recently thought we were women, until we were informed that actually it's nothing to do with what body we have, it's actually a characteristic of the mind.

Speaking for myself, I genuinely have no idea (a) if my mind meets the definition or not, (b) if it turns out that it doesn't, why I still seem to have suffered the same social and physical disadavantages of being a woman anyway simply because I have a female body, and (c) why if it turns out that I am not a woman but simply female, my right to the "women's" single sex spaces and protections that were put in place originally to support female people (that having been the definition of "women" in place at the time) is less valid than a trabs woman who may have lived 50 or more years with male privilege?

So, even if it does seem terribly terribly obvious to you, would you mind still answering the question "what does living as a woman mean?" for those of us who are still confused?

And I'll add my own question: is "living as a woman" the same thing as "being a woman"? If not, what would you give us ... oh, let's say the three most significant differences?

NoNotMeNoSiree · 28/12/2021 16:36

Turquoise baubles those questions have all mostly been answered on the thread so not sure why you're saying they're not?
Maybe read the thread if you haven't already?

Blibbyblobby · 28/12/2021 16:37

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@Blibbyblobby

Read the thread there are plenty of examples of strawmen and loaded questions from last night.

With the examples regarding the communities you gave some examples yourself whilst accusing the 'woke" (as if there is some monolith with exactly the same views) of choosing to be spokes people or whatever. Yet I gave the example of how woke was used to attack groups that did represent the communities they come from.

As said its just a[/quote]
With the examples regarding the communities you gave some examples yourself whilst accusing the 'woke" (as if there is some monolith with exactly the same views) of choosing to be spokes people or whatever.

I think you must have misread my comment since I specifically differentiated between different aspects of "woke" values, groups and behaviours, some of which I think are positive and constructive and some of which I think are not. No monoliths, because I don't think that way.

Bambooshoot · 28/12/2021 16:39

@littlepieces

I think there are some extremes of 'wokeness' and virtue signalling for sure. But I hate that it's just become another stick to bash millennials and younger generations with. Old people hate young people trying to challenge order of things, even if it's trying to make positive change. Their non-woke system has worked well in favour of them. What if marginalised groups actually became equals? God forbid.
Marginalised groups like biological women you mean? I’d be all for that.
JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 16:40

See again using Reed as an outlier to day that BL. Got their numbers wrong is poor.

BLM's numbers on the shooting of black men are overwhelmingly backed up by research from many different institutions. Whilst Reed is interesting on class, he fails to note (in the articles I've read) why there is such a wealth disparity between blacks and whites in the US and how this is linked to history.

L0stinCyberspace · 28/12/2021 16:43

Oftentimes the action of the woke crowd against "racism" actually infantalises and is reductive against the very people it is trying to fight for.

JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 16:43

Again with the leading questions.

OK. Here's mine back to you. Why is the term "living as a woman" so difficult for you to understand?

If we were to phrase as ," living under a proffered identity" it would suggest an element of active choice on behalf of the transperson, which obviously isn't ideal either.

So where is the compromise ? Can a transwoman never call themselves a woman? Do they always have to apply the prefix?

Warmduscher · 28/12/2021 16:51

@JohnHuffam1812

Again with the leading questions.

OK. Here's mine back to you. Why is the term "living as a woman" so difficult for you to understand?

If we were to phrase as ," living under a proffered identity" it would suggest an element of active choice on behalf of the transperson, which obviously isn't ideal either.

So where is the compromise ? Can a transwoman never call themselves a woman? Do they always have to apply the prefix?

It’s difficult for me to understand. It would be kind of you to explain to someone who has told you they don’t understand what you mean by it.

Unless you can’t, of course.

VladmirsPoutine · 28/12/2021 16:51

People seem to forget that white Americans had a 400 year head start when doing racial analysis of the U.S. The threads on Mumsnet r.e. BLM and police brutality around George Floyd were brain numbing 'BUt wE aRen'T liKe tHe U.S of Ayy'

Zerogravity · 28/12/2021 16:53

Why is the term "living as a woman" so difficult for you to understand?
Because it only makes sense if it relies on (often sexist) stereotypes. Worldwide, the only thing that unites all women is their biology. I don't know what I am expected to have in common with a trans woman. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that I wouldn't have in common with men too.

bordermidgebite · 28/12/2021 16:55

By living as a woman i understand

  1. I have female biology which affects my life in a number of ways
  2. because I am clearly female , this affects how others treat me, how I was educated from birth , informally as well as formally

Now how can anyone without female biology achieve those ?

JohnHuffam1812 · 28/12/2021 16:55

The threads on BLM were exactly how this thread is going. Accusations of being woke and that the issues don't actually exist, lots of selective quotes from black people who said so .

Swipe left for the next trending thread