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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

999 replies

twwindow · 27/12/2021 20:18

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

OP posts:
Furries · 28/12/2021 02:42

@NoNotMeNoSiree

For those at the back, or late to the thread, the lesbians and cocks point was originally put to me. I was talking about racism and should it not be called out? Got this as a reply. Now it seems to be framed as a question to avoid answering anything else. Just talk about cocks and lesbians and ignore everything else that was being said. Anyone care to answer the actual comment about racism? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?! Bueller.....
And, sorry, but even your phrasing “lesbians and cocks point” is just so unnecessary.

To answer your question - of course racism should be called out. Every bloody time.

At the same time, don’t think you won’t be called out for flippantly phrasing an issue as “simply” as just cocks and lesbians.

With regards to race, I’m not quite sure how to word this as I don’t want to offend anyone. There are some black men that I find attractive. There are some black men that I don’t find attractive. There are some black men that are attractive in looks but I find their personality/views off-putting. I don’t feel wrong in thinking these things - and you’re right, I’m not going to trot out my reasons for not wanting to date.

But lesbians, by definition, are never going to find someone with a penis attractive - and should be able to be totally comfortable with feeling/thinking/saying this.

So I’ll throw your “Bueller’ right back at you.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 28/12/2021 02:43

Woke means you’ve woken up. So you see systemic prejudice. Personally I would be proud to be woke but I don’t class myself as virtue signaling or a wanker. It’s just a way of belittling people who care about issues.

I agree with this

SantaClawsServiette · 28/12/2021 02:44

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Do you ask people to define homophobia? Sexism? Racism? Or just that one?
It would be perfectly legitimate to do so, and there are people who put ridiculous things in those categories. A few have been mentioned.

The thing is, people can with good reason disagree that a certain idea is racist or homophobic or any of those other things. I think marking Asian applicants to Harvard down because they are Asian in basically racist, concept others disagree and in fact think it is antiracist to do so. Probably neither group of people are personally racists, but rather we have different ideas about what constitutes race, what is meant by equality, and probably about how society works overall.

Nothing is served by trying to slap terms like bigot on other people in these cases, or thinking it is ok to call them out at work or in social venues as if they owe us an explanation at any time for having a different view.

QOD · 28/12/2021 02:48

One of my step brothers describes himself as woke
He’s 100% more knowledgeable about covid than Professor Whitty et al
As in it was planned to be released (I mean that’s the only bit that’s got the tiniest smidgen of truth in it) by the Chinese to control the world
But weirdly the chinese government doesn’t in fact rule China. The WORLD government does 👀 which is lead by Trump who KNOWS EVERYTHING
Then it turns out the royal family are lizards, we all got trackers implanted with our first vaccine (obvs he posts all this wank on his mobile phone that y’a know, tracks his everything fucking move), Royal garden party invites go to those who supply children into paedo rings, erm every vaccine is made from fétus cells, 911 was set up by the U.S. government, oh ffs now I can’t think of all the other bollox
He went to a monastery where they greeted him
By name as they’d been expecting him and praying for him to come, man didn’t walk on the moon, our organs are harvested against our will at death (erm I hope mine are)
Literally post after post with all this shit
He has thousands of friends on the gram (set public so I Go nose when I feel like getting my heart racing 😂 )
He’s had severe mh issues his whole adult life - until now. He only had those issues due to the medication the nhs threw at him to make politicians friends rich
Obviously he doesn’t work as he has been called to speak out and WAKE US UP
But weirdly he didn’t work before anyway because severely mentally ill and depressed
He smoked weed to self medicate before the nhs tried to control him and obviously self medicates now with even more as it’s natures cure
“They” claim weed causes mental illness and paranoia.. which is why he went on meds and weed is why he had paranoia etc etc
That’s woke as I know it

I fucking hate him. His brother and sister are dole living baby farms too

DdraigGoch · 28/12/2021 06:29

Thank you for your definition. Does being woke also extend to anti-racism? I assumed it did, but your answer suggests otherwise.
@ItsLoisSangersFault it certainly includes white middle class people patronising black people, telling them what they should find racist and treating them as if they have no agency of their own.

FindingMeno · 28/12/2021 06:36

This thread kind of demonstrates what I think about woke stuff. Lots of academic, highly intellectual argument, and fuck all actual action because everyone is too busy belittling everyone else.
I don't understand half of it and I very much don't think I'm alone.
But then, I'm 'old' and don't get a say in anything because presumably I don't know any of the struggles.
Some woke people would shit their pants if they had to deal with the grit of some people's lives.
Trying to force change by bullying isn't going to work.

Alondra · 28/12/2021 06:41

Answering the original post, I haven't read the 20 pages...

Being woke was originally being understandable that that the world is diverse and full of people of different races, creeds, sexuality and culture.

I think the term "woke" has been highjacked by the extreme right to create an issue with transgender/women rights.

I'm 100% feminist and will fight with anyone and any party that tells me a person with a cock is a female. Unfortunately it's not as black and white where politics are concerned. We really need to look at party policies in the small print.

GladysTheOstrich · 28/12/2021 07:22

Interesting thread.

I work in schools and have to update my safeguarding training on a regular basis. Victoria Climbié's tragic death is safeguarding 'ground zero', from which many of our current safeguarding principles are drawn.

One of the criticisms of professionals in Victoria's case was that they made allowances for 'cultural factors' - ignoring her fearful behaviour around her 'Aunt' because it was - in their view - common for children to be be deferential to adults in some African countries and communities.

To me, this encapsulates the negative connotations around 'woke', although it's not a word I use. In this case, it's the dismissal of actual, real, tangible evidence of a crime because a person prioritises phenomenological considerations, or is merely worried about causing offence.

SportsMother · 28/12/2021 07:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigYellowHat · 28/12/2021 08:25

It’s so annoying because a lot of people have moved away from what ‘woke’ originally was and have taken it to the extreme. Anything seems to be offensive nowadays. Did anyone notice that the Pogues has removed the word ‘faggot’ and changed it to ‘haggard’. The song was written in a different time yet people just don’t get it.

CallMeNutribullet · 28/12/2021 08:26

@BigYellowHat

It’s so annoying because a lot of people have moved away from what ‘woke’ originally was and have taken it to the extreme. Anything seems to be offensive nowadays. Did anyone notice that the Pogues has removed the word ‘faggot’ and changed it to ‘haggard’. The song was written in a different time yet people just don’t get it.
Funnily enough "slut" remains fine
BigYellowHat · 28/12/2021 08:27

@Omicrone

Most 'woke' people tend to be the most intolerant people around. If you don't agree with them on absolutely everything then you are a terrible person and you and your impure thoughts need to either be 're-educated' or 'cancelled'.

Its bullshit.

You’ve just described my sister and BIL- do you know them?!
FixItUpChappie · 28/12/2021 08:34

Because a lot of it is offensive to the people who came before, who engaged with and fought practical struggles that are being erased and glossed over by others, who have learned little about the issues, and think their often shallow and uninformed opinions are progressive when they are in fact counterproductive.

Yes! this well said - virtue signalling with scant knowledge or even acknowledgement that think are complicated, grey and not so straight-forward all the time.

FixItUpChappie · 28/12/2021 08:39

Woke" really isn't an insult, just a sarcastic little dig from the oldies.

Apparently wokeness doesn't extend to ageism Hmm

badspella · 28/12/2021 08:41

I must admit, I do not fully understand what being 'woke' is. A dictionary definition of 'woke' is 'to be alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism'. In that sense, then being 'woke' is something positive. Perhaps the problem lies in what we do after we become alert to injustice and discrimination, or perhaps an issue is that we become so keenly alert that we interpret everything through the lens of injustice and discrimination.

RedToothBrush · 28/12/2021 08:57

Meaningful change doesn't happen by forcing people to do something they don't want. Thats authoritarianism.

Performance activism just tells people what to do rather than addressing problems that need structural change. Its incredibly black and white.

If you point out that inequalities are not simplistic and are unevenly distributed that falls on deaf ears. Inconvenient truths are silenced because they don't fit the narrative. Even if its a minority person pointing out the issue and saying they have more / less privilege than the prescribed heirachy of oppressed thinks.

Respect needs to be mutual otherwise you end up with a backlash.

I find it disturbing when you have people like Trevor Phillips utterly trashed and made out as if they know nothing.

Whats particularly noticable is the political blind spots social media activists have. They want certain policy changes but don't think about practical application in the real world and how it could be abused, manipulated or otherwise have unintended side effects which actually do more harm than good for their intended goal. Or an inability to think of practical solutions to barriers to change. To use an example - the climate change summit didn't agree to ban coal because of the intervention of India (amongst others). This caused outrage. But India has its hands tied in many ways because it has so many citizens on the bread line who don't live in regular housing who use it as fuel to cook on. How can it ban coal by a certain date if it doesn't have an alternative to this? Then you have the thousands employed in the industry who aren't skilled who would lose their income. You would end up with a whole load of humanitarian disasters of a different kind. Thats not to say we absolutely must do more - i usually agree with many of the ambitions of 'woke politics'. What I absolutely object to is the puritanical, unthinking ideological nonsense many of its advocates spout on social media and the manner in which they go about it.

Its alienating, hypocritical and often self defeating.

Instead of being aware of say racism and sexism, some of the 'approved' thinking in other areas ends up being doing most harm to the groups its supposed to be helping because of the lack of joined up thinking.

The attitude that goes with it can be utterly stinking and hostile rather than open minded and cooperative.

Sadly the reality is meaningful change only happens slowly over time. The instant world of social media has lead to an over simplification of the world, unrealistic demands and an inability to understand why people cannot necessarily have what they want instantly.

Whats also is very striking is the extent to which this is all very unaware and blind to the realities of abject poverty - particularly internationally.

What frustrates me most - and the OPs initially post is a good example - is the attitude that if you aren't signed up to things without question, that somehow you are opposed to these underlying ideals. Thats clap trap. My problem is with method not motive. My problem is with ideological puritanicalism being out of touch with the complexity of the real world. I liken 'woke politics' to a bull in a china shop approach to extremely delicate, difficult and fragile issues. It doesn't work.

I just wish people would get away from 256 characters and actually get out into the real world and try and use their brain cells practically rather than arguing into the void.

ufucoffee · 28/12/2021 09:00

Because it's 'we're right, your opinions count for nothing'.

SpiderinaWingMirror · 28/12/2021 09:08

Cos it's all become a competition with the constant implication that we are not trying hard enough.

user9764577436 · 28/12/2021 09:22

@buttercuplizzy

Because its the epitome of virtual signalling: do as I say, not as I do.

It is borderline Orwellian it its beliefs. Re-writing history and language to push its regressive ideology and 'cancelling' anyone who doesn't swallow the narrative. They have zero tolerance and believe in 'one' truth.

It also isn't about making the world a better place. It is regressive in all ways. It paints a picture of inclusively, but scratch the surface and it isn't.

👌🏼 This comment is spot on.

It creates a divide rather than unity with the verocity of itself.

twwindow · 28/12/2021 09:27

Ok I don't think I explained myself in my OP correctly.

And example - the SATC reboot has been slated for being woke. Purely because the storylines are highlighting issues around race/gender etc.

Another example, if I was to call out say and instance if someone saying something racially inappropriate people would probably eye rolls and say woke - purely for calling out NOT cancelling them.

Cancel culture is another issue - I'm merely talking about highlighting injustices bow leads to some people getting angry and saying people are being too woke.

My examples are probably not the greatest but I hope it makes my point a bit clearer. I'm not talking about woke gone extreme (cancel culture) I'm talking about merely highlighting issues these days to do with race, inequality gets some people flamed. And it's not cool.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 28/12/2021 09:32

Not RTFT but here's a list of cancellations for the people who were asking for examples of people cancelled for not being woke/woke enough: www.canceledpeople.com/cancelations

bordermidgebite · 28/12/2021 09:48

Calling out racist behaviour isn't woke , it's anti racist .

It doesn't need an additional new label that to many older people would have needed explaining

once you start using words and labels that need explanation you are putting a barrier between yourself and the old fashioned anti racists, implying you are something more . Smug is what people then see

bordermidgebite · 28/12/2021 09:51

Anti racism annoys racists ( continue fir every other form of discrimination )

Separating different forms of discrimination is useful as they have different causes , solutions , and many people have blind spots ( agism time and again on this thread)

VladmirsPoutine · 28/12/2021 09:57

Meaningful change doesn't happen by forcing people to do something they don't want. Thats authoritarianism.

Oh really. No wonder all the men just decided that giving women the vote among other rights was just 'the right thing to do'. And of course all those slave owners who finally saw the error of their ways. You're right, historically speaking meaningful change came about because the oppressed asked nicely, France is a good case study on this isn't it. Hmm

ufucoffee · 28/12/2021 09:57

@twwindow

Ok I don't think I explained myself in my OP correctly.

And example - the SATC reboot has been slated for being woke. Purely because the storylines are highlighting issues around race/gender etc.

Another example, if I was to call out say and instance if someone saying something racially inappropriate people would probably eye rolls and say woke - purely for calling out NOT cancelling them.

Cancel culture is another issue - I'm merely talking about highlighting injustices bow leads to some people getting angry and saying people are being too woke.

My examples are probably not the greatest but I hope it makes my point a bit clearer. I'm not talking about woke gone extreme (cancel culture) I'm talking about merely highlighting issues these days to do with race, inequality gets some people flamed. And it's not cool.

And that OP is why the SATC is a flop. There was no need to highlight such issues. I wanted to watch it for frivolous tosh, not to be lectured.