To think the UK and France should not be sued for manslaughter over migrants drowning?

[OneRuleForThem]

A humanitarian group are suing the two countries saying they left migrants to drown. AIBU to think this isn’t right? I don’t think either “left” anybody to drown and they need to realise that getting on an inflatable boat packed to the rafters and attempting to cross the Channel isn’t a good idea.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

I also hope that the investigation shows no wrongdoing on the part of both coast guards and any would be rescuers. I agree it’s wrong to blame the refugees. They’re desperate and vulnerable to human traffickers that are illegally exploiting them. Robbing them of what little money they have with complete callous disregard to their safety. I don’t think the refugees know the risks they are taking fully. The Channel looks small on a map, but it’s a much rougher and dangerous sea than anywhere on the Mediterranean. How could they possibly know? And they’re being lied to by the traffickers.

Perhaps the case is really to get the governments to actually do more than pick up the pieces after each disaster. To stop the traffickers and open safe avenues to apply for asylum. It’s the kind of thing we should be doing a UN international law, agency, and process for. We have WHO for health, why not a World Refugee Organisation?

Hothammock - So you think anybody should be allowed to come to this country regardless. At what number would you say is enough? 1 million, 2 million? More?

@tinierclanger Being an economic migrant doesn't make their life worth any less, but it does mean that offering safe passage to the UK from outside for true asylum seekers is unlikely to stop everyone from making dangerous trips across the channel anyway.

@Hothammock Our rules are not obvious? I think you will find that most countries in the world control who is allowed to enter and especially those who want to work. I understand wanting to help his sister, but is breaking the laws of another country the right way to do it?

@mamamia7962 @newname12345
I am not saying either of those things.
But just as it is a fact the rules are being broken, it is also a fact that following rules does not save that man's sister, and does not alter the fact that our country's wealth and health system and benefits system and education system etc etc is founded on a history of exploitation and interference in the affairs of the unstable counties these people are fleeing. They can't change these things, we can't change these things, but we should be able to understand them. And eventually, those responsible for failing to see all these things will be held accountable.

I'm amazed how some posters seem to know exactly what happened, what conversations took place in the boat and how the 27 failed to survive. How insulting to make such assumptions based on nothing but biased.

I also hope that the investigation shows no wrongdoing on the part of both coast guards and any would be rescuers
I do too. I really do. The prospect that they could ignore calls because they've become so blaze with immigrant crossing is too horrific to consider.

However, going back to the poster who started that thread, how despicable to say that these people don't even deserve to find out what really happened.

What happened is 27 people got into an inflatable dingy (I won’t even call it a boat) designed for 15, with no life jackets, no navigation or location equipment, no lights, no flares or other rescue equipment, and set off in the middle of the night, to cross a sea they had know prior experience of.

And they drowned. Which is what would also happen if you or I tried it. Which is tragic and a completely unnecessary waste of life. It’s just so unnecessary.

Claim asylum in France. Then come over here. That is the safe and legal route. To make this journey in this way is just completely unnecessary, and I think more should be done to make people aware that there are legal and safer routes. Yes they make take longer but at least you won’t be dead. You also won’t have to live in ‘the jungle’ and be at the mercy of thug people traffickers.

There are basic international identity database checks they do after they gather the asylum seekers biometric data- fingerprints, retina scan

So I've been told, but remembering some of the circumstances people come from, I wonder just how effective this is with folk who've never been on any database in the first place

(It) shouldn’t be made too draconian or intrusive as these refugees have suffered enough"

Two points here: first of all nobody's suggesting putting them up against a wall - even those whose representatives insist that any checking's an intrusion - and secondly, there's no way to objectively know what they've "suffered" if their identities and places or origin aren't clear

@Hothammock Its also a fact that the UK is a finite size with finite resources. It would be great if we could allow anyone in who wanted to come but it simply isn't going to work.

(I personally know lots of people who would love to come to the UK for economic reasons, but they know they can't come here legally so they do not try.)

[quote Hothammock]**@mamamia7962* @newname12345*
I am not saying either of those things.
But just as it is a fact the rules are being broken, it is also a fact that following rules does not save that man's sister, and does not alter the fact that our country's wealth and health system and benefits system and education system etc etc is founded on a history of exploitation and interference in the affairs of the unstable counties these people are fleeing. They can't change these things, we can't change these things, but we should be able to understand them. And eventually, those responsible for failing to see all these things will be held accountable.[/quote]
But is breaking the rules going to save his sister ? £45,000 is handsome house deposit and even UK residents on NMW renting a room can't save that much in any short amount of time.

@Rinoachicken

What happened is 27 people got into an inflatable dingy (I won’t even call it a boat) designed for 15, with no life jackets, no navigation or location equipment, no lights, no flares or other rescue equipment, and set off in the middle of the night, to cross a sea they had know prior experience of.

And they drowned. Which is what would also happen if you or I tried it. Which is tragic and a completely unnecessary waste of life. It’s just so unnecessary.

Claim asylum in France. Then come over here. That is the safe and legal route. To make this journey in this way is just completely unnecessary, and I think more should be done to make people aware that there are legal and safer routes. Yes they make take longer but at least you won’t be dead. You also won’t have to live in ‘the jungle’ and be at the mercy of thug people traffickers.

^^ This

There are safe and legal routes here - step 1 involves applying for asylum in the safe country in which you are currently standing

@TractorAndHeadphones A lot of them don't have any passport or documentation, how do you expect them to buy a plane ticket? The smugglers are likely paid directly by whoever is gathering the money for them.
Don't spout such nonsense ...

See above - to be able to buy your plane ticket you apply for asylum in France (or any other country you have passed through) and once all is in order you use some of that cash you would have given to the people smugglers for a seat on a blow up boat to instead buy a plane ticket etc.

@tinierclanger Assuming you’re posting this in good faith, here is a link to an explanation of why asylum seekers don’t just get on a plane or ferry.
TL/DR because they can’t

They can once they have made their way through the asylum system. Of course that carries the risk of being found out to be a chancer and being deported back to wherever they came from for some, like the Indian economic migrant mentioned by previous posters who was coming here intending to work illegally to sen d money home. Not exactly a poor refugee desperately escaping a war-torn Hydrabad SKY call-centre

@user1471447863 I’m confused, which Indian migrant are you talking about? Do you mean Mohammed Shekha? The Iranian Kurd?

Obviously people are going to have different opinions on migration, border management and policy regarding refugees. What’s troubling is how little understanding of the actual facts there seems to be. :(

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

Maritime Law is Maritime Law. You answer distress calls. Whoever is making them.

This. But, a relevant provision of Maritime Law is the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS). Unseaworthy boats (overloaded, no life jackets, no navigation equipment and no distress flares) breach fundamental principles of safety of life at sea based on the SOLAS Convention.

The English Channel is a minimum width of 21 miles, which takes several hours to cross, in one of the busiest shipping channels in the world. Blaming the English and French coastguards for being unable to rescue an unpredictable amount of dangerous boats constantly crossing at all hours, including the middle of the night is ridiculous.

The lack of compassion on this thread is soul destroying.

I’ve seen the boats ‘land’ (sometimes daily) and these poor human beings as so desperate for survival. The boats are so frequent that surely something more efficient could be done to monitor the crossing.

@AutumnWinterSpring The issue is that the crossings are from France, so no-one really has to make the crossing for their survival. If there was the resource to monitor the crossings, wouldn't it be better to block them totally? Otherwise you are just encouraging people smugglers.

I personally have compassion for true refugees that want to come to the UK because they have family already here. I don't though have any compassion for economic migrants you want to come here illegally to work regardless of their reasons.

I'd prefer Priti Patel and Boris Johnson to be personally sued, the latter for appointing someone who is a bully and was quite rightly sacked by Theresa May.

@User135644

Manslaughter charges should be brought to the people smugglers. They and the people in the boats were breaking the law.

Definitely. They don't have to come here, why not claim asylum where they are. If you're that desperate to get to a safe country, why are they leaving the safe countries they've passed through?

They took the risk, they paid the price.

If/ when this goes to to trial it will be unsuccessful. A successful charge of manslaughter for an illegal crossing would open the floodgates for manslaughter charges... think about all the migrants in the Mediterranean!

@Ylvamoon

They took the risk, they paid the price.

If/ when this goes to to trial it will be unsuccessful. A successful charge of manslaughter for an illegal crossing would open the floodgates for manslaughter charges... think about all the migrants in the Mediterranean!

"They took a risk, they paid the price" wow. You're speaking about human life, not some idiot betting £1000 on black.

And they drowned. Which is what would also happen if you or I tried it. Which is tragic and a completely unnecessary waste of life. It’s just so unnecessary
But that's not the point here. The issue is whether the authorities failed to undertake their duties regardless of the situation.

They took the risk, they paid the price
So if you're a smoker, knowing that smoking will likely kill you, should doctors tell lung patients that they took the risk and they won't treated under the NHS because they knew the risks they were taking?

People who make such statements just do so because they don't see these people as the vulnerable victims they are but unwanted leaches they don't want around them. They would never say the same about their family and friends.

@Tealightsandd

As a nation we shouldn't leave people to die. That's absolutely horrific.

Agreed. But very sadly we do. On a regular basis. Perhaps a humanitarian group should sue the UK government over the 100s of homeless left to die on our streets every year (both migrant and British born).

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/homeless-man-found-dead-near-25750376

Probably more helpful (than sueing) whether over the trafficked migrant crossings or the homeless left to die on the street, would be constructive practical action.

That's a fucking stupid thing to say.It's like the all lives matter bollocks.

If someone sues a hospital because of neglect that caused a baby's death you wouldn't say that actually no, don't sue because we haven't sued about some people not getting the cancer treatment they need or some other death.

Fact is that we are responsible for people needing to flee. Climate change due to our greed and profit setting off a big chain of events that lead to people fleeing. Damn right we should take responsibility and help and things are only going to get worse.

A successful charge of manslaughter for an illegal crossing would open the floodgates for manslaughter charges

I sometimes wonder if that's the idea, unlikely as it is
IME many (not all) of those attracted to these "agencies" tend to be anti authority ultra liberals of the type who people ER and so many other noisy pressure groups. Nuance is often lost and they tend to prefer virtue signalling slogans which take little account of the situation's realities, as we see when questions like "how do we know who's who?" get ignored

Shame really, since some of those questions are key points which could actually help us to assist the many in need of real help

A successful charge of manslaughter for an illegal crossing would open the floodgates for manslaughter charges
Only if negligence in duty is found. Authorities are not responsible for crossings taking places and say people dying despite all efforts to avoid it.

They are responsible if they failed to act in their duties. This is what justifies an investigation.

@BoredatHome321 & @vivainsomnia - you need to look at this in context. If you or I decide to sit in a small, overloaded boat in oder to cross one of the busiest shipping channel, in the mids of winter, what would comon sense tell you?
The majority of migrants are adult human beings with the ability to think for themselves, otherwise they wouldn't have made it to the shores of France.

And just for the record, I do see the people behind thi, but in the end it is about resources. (money, food, water, shelter- whatever you want to calla resource.)

My opinion? There isn't an answer to this migrant crisis. We can't help everyone, but we can certainly help some. But the help should be long before anyone even thinks about leaving their home country. Before anyone puts themselves in the hands of hardened criminals. But even this comes down to politics and resources.

So what is your answer?

If you or I decide to sit in a small, overloaded boat in oder to cross one of the busiest shipping channel, in the mids of winter, what would comon sense tell you?
Common sense? Because people in this country always act on common sense? Should families who go swimming in the sea when the flag is red be left to die because they lacked common sense?

And medical experts would claim that those who refuse the covid vaccin lack common sense too. Should they be refused hospital treatment and left to die?

We can't put ourselves in the position of these people because we are extremely fortunate to not have experience the conditions they have with no-one prepared to help us.

Is it really so hard to see how desperation makes you do things you would never otherwise attempt if you were not experiencing such despair?