To think the UK and France should not be sued for manslaughter over migrants drowning?

[OneRuleForThem]

A humanitarian group are suing the two countries saying they left migrants to drown. AIBU to think this isn’t right? I don’t think either “left” anybody to drown and they need to realise that getting on an inflatable boat packed to the rafters and attempting to cross the Channel isn’t a good idea.

But where are the migrants getting their money from? If the traffickers are charging between £3,000 - £6,000 per head, why are they not using that money to provide food for their families, no way would I let my children starve in a camp and rely on the French Govt for hand outs as and when if I had that amount of money.

They can only be forced on to a boat if they have the money to pay surely. A lot of this doesn't make sense.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Utopia 56 said it “intends that investigations be carried out to determine the responsibilities of the French and British rescue services in this tragedy,” adding that the people were abandoned “despite calls to the English and French rescue services.”

I'm aware of what they've claimed, but am interested in how they're supposed to know what happened. It seems someone else has heard there were two survivors, but on a crowded boat in crisis, doubtless with others screaming and shouting, is it realistic that these two were aware of who was calling who and exactly what was said?

Same with refugees being "forced into boats at gunpoint" ... again, is there any verifiable evidence of this, or is it hearsay?

It could also be several people on the same boat calling at the same time, confusing the rescue services!

How hard can this investigation be though? The only source of information they have are the call logs and interviews with those on duty.

No eyewitnesses, CCTV/dash cams etc to check. Unless I’m being thick it should be clear cut

Also r.e conflicting reports
The guardian link I posted above said that at around 3 a.m 2 hours after the initial trouble a rescuer responded and told them to hold up a torch. They tried using their phones but the phones quickly fell into the water

Most other sources only state the ‘several calls’ and some say people were in contact with their families very very hard to find the truth

A lot of this doesn't make sense

It rarely does, and as if things aren't already bad enough, some of the "agencies" involved have a tendency to cloud things

Since they appear to be French I have very little knowledge of Utopia 56, but as said upthread I was briefly involved with a local one and it wasn't pleasant

@LittleRoundRobin

100% YANBU. It's the risk they take when they get on these inflatable dinghies.

Whilst it's tragic that these people died, I think it's pretty disgusting and shameful that the UK and France are being blamed for them drowning. I mean WTAF? How the hell can anyone even begin to THINK it's our fault? They came of their own accord! No WAY is it the fault of the UK or France, and it's batshit to suggest otherwise!

I couldn’t disagree more. This happens because safe routes of passage have been closed. Our government policy is culpable; we can’t deny responsibility.

To those harping on once again about how people “always” come to the UK, the vast majority of them don’t. People who do are coming here because

• they have friends or family here, who can help them to settle and rebuild a life
• they speak English as a second language

I am really sickened that some people take such a casual attitude towards these utterly tragic deaths.

Overloading a boat is stupid and asking for trouble

Using a small inflatable boat to cross the channel is asking for trouble when there are safer means, like buying a ferry, eurostar or plane ticket. Don't come out with any crap like they cannot afford a ticket - they pay these people smugglers thousands.

I know some bits of Calais are a shithole but its not exactly Kabul. Nobody is crossing the channel to escape war-torn France and while France may not be the wokest country its not like the gays/trans/nonbinary etc are sneaking themselves across the border to escape persecution.
They are safe in France, they can follow the correct procedure and apply for asylum there & come here in safety and comfort on the Eurostar once they are regularised

Those do-gooders time would be better spent helping these people use the correct legal channels in france.

The only source of information they have are the call logs and interviews with those on duty.

I did post the France24 article where they interviewed the first rescuer to arrive there. It was a French fisherman and he then called in the French Coast guard said they “arrived right away” so perhaps as fast as could be expected? He said he’s haunted by the dead bodies he saw, one floating right by the capsized boat. He said he wished he’d got there five minutes earlier so he might have saved them.

He also said many were not even wearing life jackets. I do blame the traffickers for that.

@Mamamia7962

But where are the migrants getting their money from? If the traffickers are charging between £3,000 - £6,000 per head, why are they not using that money to provide food for their families, no way would I let my children starve in a camp and rely on the French Govt for hand outs as and when if I had that amount of money.

They can only be forced on to a boat if they have the money to pay surely. A lot of this doesn't make sense.

Well a lot of the refugees are the privileged of their own country. That's how they managed to get this far. They have family, contacts etc who can put up the money. The refugees I know (i think a PP mentioned similar as well) have claimed asylum successfully in a 'safe' country and then just moved to the UK as an EU citizen. It's now more difficult. And the UK has very strict policies to prevent chain migration. You cannot bring your family over unless they are your spouse or children under 18. In very very rare circumstances you can bring your ageing parents over but only after proving there's no way they can stay in your home country. If they can just get to the UK however they can try to claim asylum and even if said claim is rejected they're unlikely to be deported.

This isn't limited to refugees btw a lot of people from my country of origin have a reputation for overstaying and I know a few myself. It's why we have more stringent visa checks than people of neighbouring countries. It's a lot harder to stay illegally in the rest of Europe.

@user1471447863

Overloading a boat is stupid and asking for trouble

Using a small inflatable boat to cross the channel is asking for trouble when there are safer means, like buying a ferry, eurostar or plane ticket. Don't come out with any crap like they cannot afford a ticket - they pay these people smugglers thousands.

I know some bits of Calais are a shithole but its not exactly Kabul. Nobody is crossing the channel to escape war-torn France and while France may not be the wokest country its not like the gays/trans/nonbinary etc are sneaking themselves across the border to escape persecution.
They are safe in France, they can follow the correct procedure and apply for asylum there & come here in safety and comfort on the Eurostar once they are regularised

Those do-gooders time would be better spent helping these people use the correct legal channels in france.

A lot of them don't have any passport or documentation, how do you expect them to buy a plane ticket? The smugglers are likely paid directly by whoever is gathering the money for them.

Don't spout such nonsense ...

YABU and disrespectful to the circumstances of people getting on that boat to have written the words "they should have known...".

Yeah they probably did know - they were desperate and the fact you can't imagine being desperate and acting out of desperation is indicative of your privilege.

They weren't "safe" in jolly Calais as some have written. Their shelters destroyed before they travelled, no safe home to return to - some with relatives in the UK.

It's a fucking tragedy, can't you see that?

@user1471447863

Overloading a boat is stupid and asking for trouble

Using a small inflatable boat to cross the channel is asking for trouble when there are safer means, like buying a ferry, eurostar or plane ticket. Don't come out with any crap like they cannot afford a ticket - they pay these people smugglers thousands.

I know some bits of Calais are a shithole but its not exactly Kabul. Nobody is crossing the channel to escape war-torn France and while France may not be the wokest country its not like the gays/trans/nonbinary etc are sneaking themselves across the border to escape persecution.
They are safe in France, they can follow the correct procedure and apply for asylum there & come here in safety and comfort on the Eurostar once they are regularised

Those do-gooders time would be better spent helping these people use the correct legal channels in france.

Assuming you’re posting this in good faith, here is a link to an explanation of why asylum seekers don’t just get on a plane or ferry.

TL/DR because they can’t
www.liberties.eu/en/stories/why-refugees-do-not-take-the-plane/16316

@tinierclanger The problem is that not everyone is coming here for the reasons you say.

Take Mohammed Shekha who one of the few survivors. There is a report of an interview with him on Kurdish TV where he said the only reason he was coming to the UK was to earn enough money (£45,000) to pay for medical treatment in India for his sister. He was then intending to return home to his family. I might be misunderstanding but he doesn't sound like a refugee who was fearing for his life.

@tinierclanger
Some refugees do get places on the Eurostar, ferry or plane. I watched a BBC documentary that followed a refugee, Hassan, who paid for a fake Czech passport and then flew into Heathrow undetected. At which point he turned himself in to the border force as an asylum seeker.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLSbI2oi7o

Liverpool bomber Emad Al Swealmeen reportedly entered the UK with a forged passport from Jordan.

Also, the Telegraph and other news outlets reported in August that all Afghan refugees can fly/ferry/train to U.K. with no passport or documents to claim asylum.

the Telegraph and other news outlets reported in August that all Afghan refugees can fly/ferry/train to U.K. with no passport or documents to claim asylum

Obvious question I know, but if this was allowed, how would anyone know whether they'd really originated in Afghanistan rather than somewhere else?

@EmpressCixi

The Afghan resettlement scheme still isn’t open.
www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/lack-of-safe-routes-leaves-afghan-refugees-to-make-dangerous-journeys-to-uk-warns-refugee-council/

This is precisely the kind of thing that’s causing the issue. Government closes safe routes, then announces something with fanfare when everybody gets upset about scenes in Kabul, but doesn’t actually implement it.

@EmpressCixi

Yes I agree *@NeverDropYourMoonCup* on maritime law and answering distress calls if you are able. But even that is no guarantee of successful rescue with zero lives lost. It’s not unheard of for boats/ships to get into trouble, get a distress call through with exact location, send up flares and the nearest ships just don’t get there in time for all or most passengers/crew on the boat/ship.

So the fact that 27 drowned isn’t proof they were deliberately left to die.

You're right, it doesn't. I fully expect it to be found that there was nothing they could have done that wouldn't have resulted in at least one boatload of people dying. Because the reality of rescues at sea is completely different to the happy ever after stories on reality TV. Frankly, it's terrifying for many people the moment their 4 hour trip on a fishing boat leaves harbour and they realise just how big the sea and other vessels are on a sunny Saturday in July. And they are pretty much guaranteed to come back alive 100% of the time.

Doesn't stop posters on here saying it's their own fault/benefits britain/they shouldn't be rescued, etc.

I do wonder if one day the politicians of the day will be held responsible for some kind of international crime over the refugee aka 'migrant' situation. You would hope that eventually, people fleeing from human rights disasters, walking into another disaster, will eventually be recognised by democratic society as victims. That as the channel fills with the graves of victims of circumstance, we will realise that it is those in charge who have failed them and who are.accountable for those circumstances. One day, I can see there will be international court hearings over all of this. My great grandchildren will look back at us in bewilderment. How will we explain ourselves?

@newname12345 the fact that some people on those boats are economic migrants rather than asylum seekers doesn’t make their lives worth any less.

However, it’s also worth pointing out that the majority of people making the crossing are asylum seekers who would have valid claims for refugee status. It’s unfortunate that people like Priti Patel have chosen to lie about this.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/refugees-channel-boats-priti-patel-home-office-refugee-council-uk-b1959108.html%3famp

@newname12345 he sounds like a brother trying to save his sister. It's called being human. We think our rules are so obvious but many people come from societies or cultures and religions with very different terms of reference to shape the judgements they make. The little compromises you make in things might be equally alien to them.

[quote tinierclanger]@EmpressCixi

The Afghan resettlement scheme still isn’t open.
www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/lack-of-safe-routes-leaves-afghan-refugees-to-make-dangerous-journeys-to-uk-warns-refugee-council/

This is precisely the kind of thing that’s causing the issue. Government closes safe routes, then announces something with fanfare when everybody gets upset about scenes in Kabul, but doesn’t actually implement it.[/quote]
That’s really disappointing. It’s been months. Let’s start a petition...such a delay is ridiculous and I would think has cost lives.

Manslaughter charges should be brought to the people smugglers. They and the people in the boats were breaking the law.

And it's so unbelievably hypocritical for people to judge those classed as 'economic migrants' as less deserving than those travelling for other reasons. Our own country is prioritising economic well being over health in this pandemic, so why on earth would we think others don't have the sense to do the same, even when the powers that be try force them to accept economic ruin.

@User135644

Manslaughter charges should be brought to the people smugglers. They and the people in the boats were breaking the law.

This.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

the Telegraph and other news outlets reported in August that all Afghan refugees can fly/ferry/train to U.K. with no passport or documents to claim asylum

Obvious question I know, but if this was allowed, how would anyone know whether they'd really originated in Afghanistan rather than somewhere else?

There are basic international identity database checks they do after they gather the asylum seekers biometric data- fingerprints, retina scan. They also have interpreters and former refugees who will speak to them in Afghani dialects to get a feel for whether they are fluent in the language and know the part of the country they claim to be from. It’s not complicated and shouldn’t be made too draconian or intrusive as these refugees have suffered enough.