To think the UK and France should not be sued for manslaughter over migrants drowning?

[OneRuleForThem]

A humanitarian group are suing the two countries saying they left migrants to drown. AIBU to think this isn’t right? I don’t think either “left” anybody to drown and they need to realise that getting on an inflatable boat packed to the rafters and attempting to cross the Channel isn’t a good idea.

However the bigger problem is the traffickers and we need to get together with other countries and actually do something about them

The problem is those countries, often corrupt, have no will to do anything and just turn a blind eye. The traffickers pay off officials, the police etc. Its big international business. They don't care if the migrants drown, infact they know they will in some instances, as long as they get the money. Then others profit here from forced labour in increasingly corrupted parts of our own towns and cities

The Sky news report on YouTube -Worlds Most Wanted People Smuggler- gives some idea of this horrific slave trade, orchestrated by crime bosses in places like Pakistan & Ethiopia. Like drug smugglers they have connections across Europe. The migrants are like shipping tins of baked beans to them

...also some of the migrants themselves will be involved or become involved in some of the organised crime

Ime the people are often lovely, the system however is a total shit show and leaves the most vulnerable in their home countries while the well off and fit fight to the front of the queue to get to the UK. It's not cheap to pay people traffickers!

The fact that others who can not pay also deserve the chance does not mean those who do have the resources to pay are not deserving. The system is undoubtedly a mess, but the fact the system pushes people to illegal routes does not mean those people do not have good claim.

Considering how many people as a country we've raped, enslaved, robbed and murdered over the years, it's good to see all the heartless racists are still alive and well.

Like most European countries have and many non-European countries continue to.

I think they should sue the people trafficking groups (including any NGOs) who organise the journeys. It's a very lucrative (albeit immoral) business for some.

yep

Considering how many people as a country we've raped, enslaved, robbed and murdered over the years, it's good to see all the heartless racists are still alive and well

'We' did not rape, rob, enslave, murder. 'We' come from working class labourers who had no say or vote on any policy on colonialism. Most people never left the tonw or city they were born in

The people enslaving these migrants now are the traffickers, big crime bosses from corrupt and failed states

@rrhuth

Ime the people are often lovely, the system however is a total shit show and leaves the most vulnerable in their home countries while the well off and fit fight to the front of the queue to get to the UK. It's not cheap to pay people traffickers!

The fact that others who can not pay also deserve the chance does not mean those who do have the resources to pay are not deserving. The system is undoubtedly a mess, but the fact the system pushes people to illegal routes does not mean those people do not have good claim.

Well it means that the most vulnerable often get left behind , it seems fucked up to me. And if you want to minimise deaths then doing nothing to stop people trying to cross the channel also seems fucked up . I'm sure you're very well meaning, but has it occurred to you that people like yourself aren't actually doing anything positive?

The number of people living in slavery today is nearly 4x greater than the entire number of African slaves traded over the trans Atlantic slavery period spanning almost 350 years.

Makes you wonder why people seem keener to moan about what happened hundreds of years ago rather than address what is now an even bigger problem in today's society.

Well it means that the most vulnerable often get left behind confused, it seems fucked up to me. And if you want to minimise deaths then doing nothing to stop people trying to cross the channel also seems fucked up confused. I'm sure you're very well meaning, but has it occurred to you that people like yourself aren't actually doing anything positive?

• yes it is a fucked up system
• yes fewer crossings would be better
• 'people like you' - WTF? I don't know you, you don't know me

My point is that people who are crossing should not be left to drown.

Were my family at risk in a war torn country I'd likely do whatever I could to get them to somewhere safer. But what is the long term solution? Surely Europe can't ultimately resettle all the people who would wish to relocate here from the wider world.

@rrhuth

Well it means that the most vulnerable often get left behind confused, it seems fucked up to me. And if you want to minimise deaths then doing nothing to stop people trying to cross the channel also seems fucked up confused. I'm sure you're very well meaning, but has it occurred to you that people like yourself aren't actually doing anything positive?

• yes it is a fucked up system
• yes fewer crossings would be better
• 'people like you' - WTF? I don't know you, you don't know me

My point is that people who are crossing should not be left to drown.

Given that scores of boats made the crossing ; and ONE drowned. Do you really think that they were just told ‘no go back to France’?

Nobody is saying that people should be left to drown. But equally rescue boats shouldn’t be used as accessories to smuggler’s plans.

Fair enough if the enquiry reveals that they did indeed turn them down, they should be punished. However the narrative is that governments are to blame?

They are - in my opinion. But not for failure to recuse people (which is what they have been doing). For failure to stop them making the crossing.

Ironically maybe the case will actually make both countries actually do something to stop people crossing.

@rrhuth

Well it means that the most vulnerable often get left behind confused, it seems fucked up to me. And if you want to minimise deaths then doing nothing to stop people trying to cross the channel also seems fucked up confused. I'm sure you're very well meaning, but has it occurred to you that people like yourself aren't actually doing anything positive?

• yes it is a fucked up system
• yes fewer crossings would be better
• 'people like you' - WTF? I don't know you, you don't know me

My point is that people who are crossing should not be left to drown.

Actually I apologize for that, it was off hand and nasty. But I think there are a lot of people who are themselves lovely, who think the world should be lovely + that the right way to act is to pretend that it's lovely. But it often comes with serious, unintended consequences, in this case people not being discouraged from risking their lives trying to cross the channel, which results in people dying. . It needs realistic approaches, not a "wouldn't everything be fantastic if there were no borders" stuff.

The French would look after migrants that want to stay in France, those crossing the channel don’t want to stay in France. There is no law to stop them getting into a boat and sailing away “IF” they all agree, if the traffickers are caught they can be prosecuted but not the migrants.

It’s a dangerous crossing I’m surprised more havn’t died but you can’t stop people taking risks, the UK is picking up as many as they can when the enter our waters

The case is being filed specifically for the one incident on 24th November this year where a boat capsized off Calais, in French waters, drowning 27 migrants.

I agree with suing the French government because it was reported by eyewitnesses that French authorities on the beach did nothing to try and stop them. They just watched them overload that death trap and push off.

I don’t agree with suing the British government though as the agreement with the French is that they should be trying to prevent migrants from attempting to cross. In addition, the tragedy happened in French waters, where British ships do not patrol and so there is no possibility that a British ship or lifeboat would even have been in the area to have then callously leave these people to drown as some have alleged “might have happened”. No evidence it did, and if there was any ship in those waters it would have been a French ship because it’s their waters.

@Theythinkitsalloveritisnow

I don't think there is a perfect world, but I think there are ethical rights and wrongs, and there is law, and cases like this can be taken to court to see where the line is at present.

The word 'discouraged' is often used but rarely explained in detail. If any 'discouragement' results in harm, it may not be ethical or legal IMO, and therefore should be challenged.

If they ignored intelligence, distress signasl or their own rules, then they should be sued.

How many of you have bothered to get to know any refugees and listened to what they have been through and what they want for their lives?

I haven't known any refugees who've used people smugglers, but have interviewed a UK organisation who profess to act on their behalf and what struck me was their willingness to accept whatever they were told without question - indeed the very idea that things might not be exactly as presented was incomprehensible to them, maybe at least partly becase they themselves were lying to secure their funding

I don't imagine that anyone wants refugees to die, whether in the channel or elsewhere, but before getting too excited about this it might be worth waiting to find out what actually happened - which may or may not tally with the tale Utopia 56 have to tell

Let’s wait and see what the evidence says. I personally doubt distress calls were actively ignored. If this were the case there would be many more instances of deaths in the channel. Due to the excellent work of the coastguards and RNLI fortunately there have not been large numbers of deaths. Fundamentally I believe that we should strongly discourage anyone from getting into an unsafe boat to cross the channel. Whilst the UK should take some refugees this should be capped and the Dover route should be closed down by agreeing automatic repatriation back to France, which is a safe country.

If somebody got in their car drunk and later tried to sue me for not stopping them I'd be a bit .

I dont know the ins and outs of it.

But I do think the fact that the migrants might have made 'stupid decisions' should be irrelevant. Medics save people who have chosen not to be vaccinated even though they are vulnerable. Mountain rescue save people who have chosen to climb mountains in bad weather with no experience or equipment or provisions. Paramedics save people who have drank far too much or done some idiotic activities like tombstoming or some weird tiktok trend involving drinking household cleaning products. If we start deciding who to save based on moral judgements about their own contribution to their situation then it's a slippery slope to removing treatment for obese people etc by the nhs, its not for us to make those judgements.

So they should sue if there is a case to answer in my opinion

Don’t forget that on the 24th, this wasn’t the only boat attempting the crossing. Every day there were dozens of boats. On November 11th a new record was set with 1,185 migrants making the crossing that day. Hundreds are being rescued every day, so it’s not realistic to expect that everyone can be saved. Similar to how many patients have died waiting in ambulance queues to get to A&E because of the NHS being overwhelmed.

From what I know, there was no distress call. No flares. Nothing. A French fisherman discovered the bodies and capsized boat and then called the French coast guard straight away. They were all already dead when they were discovered.
www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211126-so-many-dead-next-to-us-fisherman-recounts-channel-migrant-drama

@EightWheelGirl

If somebody got in their car drunk and later tried to sue me for not stopping them I'd be a bit .

You are not a state force. If someone gets in their car drunk and the cops stand back and watch, that's different.

@FruitFeatures

All of the responses saying basically that it’s ok that they were left to freeze to death in terror are absolutely sickening. You are sociopaths. You do realise you’re talking about human beings, right?

This 💯