To think the UK and France should not be sued for manslaughter over migrants drowning?

[OneRuleForThem]

A humanitarian group are suing the two countries saying they left migrants to drown. AIBU to think this isn’t right? I don’t think either “left” anybody to drown and they need to realise that getting on an inflatable boat packed to the rafters and attempting to cross the Channel isn’t a good idea.

“They are in France, a safe country. They do not need to get to the UK. Just why are they all so keen to get here?.”

Many have friends and family in the UK, English is their second language, often quite good, we treat migrants better that other countries. Once they arrive here they all claim Political Assylum proving that false is very difficult in the majority of cases.

The personal stories of individual migrants is heartbreaking but how many should the UK allow, because half of Africa and much of the Third World travel here .

@TooBigForMyBoots
You are not a state force.fbiscuit If someone gets in their car drunk and the cops stand back and watch, that's different.
The best comparison in this case would be that the person got in their car drunk, went and crashed their car, then after a phone call asking for help saying that they had crashed "Somewhere in Kent", could not be found before they died. It is one thing to watch and refuse to help, it is entirely different to be asked for help, but not be able to help because you do not know where that person is, whilst also dealing with 50+ other simultaneous car crashes.

@Crazykatie

“They are in France, a safe country. They do not need to get to the UK. Just why are they all so keen to get here?.”

Many have friends and family in the UK, English is their second language, often quite good, we treat migrants better that other countries. Once they arrive here they all claim Political Assylum proving that false is very difficult in the majority of cases.

The personal stories of individual migrants is heartbreaking but how many should the UK allow, because half of Africa and much of the Third World travel here .

So we let them drown? Because we've "got enough"

I think some people forget these are also sons, brothers, mothers, fathers and real people!

@EightWheelGirl

If somebody got in their car drunk and later tried to sue me for not stopping them I'd be a bit .

Would you have been a police officer on duty when you watched them and did nothing? Because only that would be comparable to emergency services not attending an emergency situation.

Nobody would sue an individual who happened to notice a boat now would they?

@Onemumtwokids

The legal question is whether the RNLI have a “duty of care” towards these people. I would say no. They are a charity who do their best not a service like the ambulance service. The volunteers put their own lives at risk going out in rough seas and placing a professional duty of care on them is not reasonable and will discourage future volunteers.

I would say the same about Mountain rescue teams. When people choose to do risky activities and get into trouble that requires help from other’s who are volunteering and taking a risk themselves they are very lucky to get that help. It’s not a right.

This

OMG, 75% agreeing. This the most harrowing thread I've read especially so close to Xmas.

I'm so glad to hear both countries are being sued. These people called the authorities. First the French who said they were in British waters. By the time they called the British, they had drifted back to French waters. It is utterly utterly utterly disgraceful.

Agree, it was a choice they made or their parents and caregivers made for them. It is a choice to come to the UK
So next time you go on holiday abroad, your kids struggle in the sea, is it ok for the locals to watch and let them die because it was your choice to go in holiday to their country.

Utterly depressing how selfish, self righteous and completely deprived of any human kindness people have become.

It depends.
If nobody knew they were there then obviously not.
But if they were alerted that there were people in trouble in the ocean and they did nothing then yes they should be held accountable.

Sorry that was a PP post that I meant to bold.

I agree with it.

I would say the same about Mountain rescue teams. When people choose to do risky activities and get into trouble that requires help from other’s who are volunteering and taking a risk themselves they are very lucky to get that help. It’s not a right
So easy to say when it's you being affected isn't it? Easy to focus on activities that you yourself most likely to engage in.

How about sati go that we should have lifeguards in pools because if you chose to go swimming in the local pool and your kid struggles, it was your choice to take your kid swimming.

If you have a car accident because for a second, you lost your concentration, you shouldn't get help because it was your choice to take your kids to a Xmas show?

Or maybe, if your house goes in flame because you forgot to turn all the Xmas tree lights off at night, that too would be your choice so why should firefighters risk their life for you.

Such a self centred view of the world when those concerned are so remove from anything you are incredibly lucky to never have to experience in your life.

@vivainsomnia

OMG, 75% agreeing. This the most harrowing thread I've read especially so close to Xmas.

I'm so glad to hear both countries are being sued. These people called the authorities. First the French who said they were in British waters. By the time they called the British, they had drifted back to French waters. It is utterly utterly utterly disgraceful.

Agree, it was a choice they made or their parents and caregivers made for them. It is a choice to come to the UK
So next time you go on holiday abroad, your kids struggle in the sea, is it ok for the locals to watch and let them die because it was your choice to go in holiday to their country.

Utterly depressing how selfish, self righteous and completely deprived of any human kindness people have become.

Strange how all the people who have ACTUALLY worked with refugees have given more balanced views - including refugees themselves

nobody is saying that anybody should be left to drown. If evidence really comes out saying they were told to piss off and drown then yes, completely fair. And the legal challenge is certainly allowed.

What people are talking about is the expectation that a rescue team much like an ambulance service would be sent out immediately. From what I have read they don’t have an army of boats standing by, they received several calls and rescue sometimes cannot be attempted because of weather, because they’re too far etc etc. If they’re closer to the French channel for example it’s common sense to get French boats which are nearer to rescue them rather than faffing about to get a British boat which might be too late. They can’t teleport.

Since several thousands of crossings have been made without failing the evidence is that the rescuers are actually very good at their job. This is not the latest in the series of tragedies. This is one boat capsizing which given what they’re trying to do is not an unpredictable consequence!

However the language used in the media demonises the rescues services and completely portrays the refugees as innocent people who are owed a service. That this something shocking, that should never have happened.

Once again I repeat they should not be left to drown but they do bear some responsibility for making the journey. It’s unexpected and shocking for something with all safety features to sink. It’s NOT shocking for an overloaded rubber dinghy to sink. The fact that so many so far have been rescued is the miracle rather than the other way around.

There's a story about this case on the BBC news website. One young woman who died was coming here because she wanted to be a doctor. It's terrible but I don't think offering a taxi service across the channel is the solution. I also feel the charities in the UK who provide food, shelter, clothes etc to people in the jungle need to take a hard look at themselves - they're basically providing a service to people smugglers by providing them with a steady stream of victims, some of whom wouldn't come if charities weren't facilitating it.

If it’s not clear this was bound to happen sooner or later!

My replies aren’t clear perhaps as I don’t disagree with the legal challenge. In fact it might force governments to actually do something to stop people from crossing. Like fence the beach or send them back to France.

But in terms of ‘legal challenge because these people are owed rescue’ - this was an accident waiting to happen. I’m inclined to believe that based on the costs guards’ previous records they were not roundly told to piss off. If they were I will gladly change my opinion. But the mindset that’s it’s something shocking is like holding a bowl of honey at an odd angle and being shocked that some of it fell down.

Yanbu. If all illegal entries to the UK were returned then there wouldn't be this issue. There needs to be a process whereby migrants can apply from other countries before they get here and be accepted or rejected.

You are being thoroughly unreasonable, and prejudiced in the true meaning of the word. If there's no case then the claimants will lose.

nobody is saying that anybody should be left to drown. If evidence really comes out saying they were told to piss off and drown then yes, completely fair. And the legal challenge is certainly allowed
That's exactly what some posters have implied. Their choice, their risk.

So ultimately, you agree that it is fair to raise a legal battle in case indeed, they raised the alarm and were told as claimed that both countries put the onus on the other and ignore their plea.... for 11 hours.

If it comes out in court that they never called, or they did, but there were genuine reasons why they couldn't get to them in time, that's fair enough. That's why we have a court system.

To say that they shouldn't even be allowed to plead their case because it's their fault they died for wanting a better life is inhuman.

@lifeturnsonadime

I think it is absolutely right that action be taken. If it is correct that distress calls were made and ignored then regardless the reasons they were in the waters if they could have been saved they should have been.

As a nation we shouldn't leave people to die. That's absolutely horrific.

This

They were all already dead when they were discovered

I thought there were two survivors (?), but if they did all lose their lives, who told Utopia 56 about the calls/refusal to come and rescue them?

@Puzzledandpissedoff

They were all already dead when they were discovered

I thought there were two survivors (?), but if they did all lose their lives, who told Utopia 56 about the calls/refusal to come and rescue them?

There were two survivors

They decided to risk crossing the worlds busiest shipping lane, in bad weather, in an unfit boat. France is a safe and friendly country, as nice as the UK, not some hell hole. If I was fearing oppression and violence I would be happy to settle in Franch (or Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc. which they will have passed through on the way), I certainly would not risk my children's lives crossing the Channel in a leaky inflatable boat.

This ^^

Utterly depressing how selfish, self righteous and completely deprived of any human kindness people have become

Completely agree with this.

Be prepared for a heck of a lot more refugees with Syria and Afghanistan continuing in crisis as well as mass migrations due to global warming.

Everyone's talking about them merrily getting into the boats as if it was a choice made entirely from free will.

How much free will do you think you have when a gun is being pointed at your or your child's head?

"They chose to get in"

I certainly would not risk my children's lives crossing the Channel in a leaky inflatable boat

How very fortunate for you that you will never be put in a position to have to make such a choice. Because you're living in the 'right' part of the world - and because you are so obviously superior to some poor desperate sod.

Is France ‘safe and friendly’, if you’re living in one of the Calais camps?

Sure, France isn’t war torn. But I wouldn’t exactly describe the conditions in the migrant camps as humane.

As per usual, this is a poor attempt to paper over the cracks of the issue rather than get to the route of the problem.

Put the money towards dismantling and imprisoning the trafficking rings who shamelessly profit from people desperately in search of a better life for themselves and their families.

I certainly would not risk my children's lives crossing the Channel in a leaky inflatable boat

No. No one would do that for fun. So… what does that tell you about the position these people are in?