DP uncomfortable about a school run dad taking DD swimming

[Eastie77Returns]

DD (8) will be attending swimming lessons at a new venue in the New Year. There are a couple of other kids in her class who attend lessons at the same pool, I am friends with both sets of parents. I was chatting to the dad of one of the kids and he mentioned that he and and the other child’s mum take it in turns to take both children swimming each week. He asked if I’d like to join the ‘rotation’ which would mean taking all 3 kids every 3 weeks and I said I’d be happy to. We all live a few minutes walk from each other and DD knows the 2 boys well. I’d already discussed this with the other mum so she is on board.

DP has announced he is uncomfortable about the arrangement as there is a male parent involved (when I originally mentioned the plan to him he thought it would only be mums). I think he is being absolutely ridiculous, I have known the school dad since our children were 2 years old and DD adores him.

However I discussed this with a friend who said she 100% understands why DP is unhappy and I need to see this from his point of view. AIBU??

Now most school recommend that year 6 children are aloud to walk to and from school alone, certainly the case in the local schools to me, they wouldn’t let a year 5 leave without a parent.

My dd is 8 in p4 so yr 3 equivalent in England. Some of her classmates have been walking home since august. The other week I knew I was going to be late so I told her to tell her teacher either her sister 11 (who was off school but would going for her if well enough) would be collecting her or if her sister wasn't there she was to walk. I said to her to tell her teacher in the morning so they could arrange to call and check with me if they needed to but teacher read said fine no problem. (Tbf they know dd is reliable).
Only p1 and 2 have to be handed to someone here and sometimes that is an older sibling too not necessarily an adult (I work in p2 myself). It's surprising that schools insist on only yr6 i think independence needs to be gradual and also abilities vary widely for individual dc. I doubt schools would actually be able to enforce that rule though and expect it's just guidance

What about single fathers, are they never safe to do anything with their children's friends? I absolutely agree that the sad fact is that children, especially girls, need to be aware of these things and I'm not minimising or saying it isn't an important consideration; but where do you draw the line? Are male teachers okay because they'll be alone with children at times? Music teachers that are male? Male relatives?

@Hertsgirl10 I said 90% of Yr6. Not Yr5
Mine aren't age 30. (No idea where that same from)
One is a similar age in key stage 2 and one is key stage3
I worked in leisure facilities for years, as involved in numerous kids organisations, am a school Governor and a safeguarding lead.
I do not see the massive risk in a situation where the child is never alone with an adult she knows well.

@Georgy12

Your DP is doing as he should and trying to protect his daughter. This is an adult male who's unknown to him and will have responsibility for your daughter when she's vulnerable. Most abusers external to family are lovely and both kids and parents tend to love them, that's how they get close enough to abuse! I wouldn't personally, no matter how great he seems why take the chance?

Well we don’t actually know what the motivations of the Ops partner are.

He may be controlling and want to stop her having that time to herself two weeks out of three.

He may be jealous and angry because he doesn’t want her talking to another man.

The only reasons given by the OP was that the other man was a “ male parent “ and that made him uncomfortable.

Everyone here is just guessing why the Ops partner / child’s father is uncomfortable about his partner and child dealing with a “male parent”.

However as the child concerned is nearly 9 I’m assuming that she has met some other male parents / male non parents in the last 9 years. So I’m still unsure what the issue is.

Schools have male teachers, male janitors and other staff.

Men work as youth group leaders , sports coaches , pool attendants and sports centre receptionists. They are taxi drivers, bus drivers, shop assistants, doctors, nurses and dentists.

Many of the other children in her class will have male parents, grandparents , uncles and siblings.

I can’t see how this child has lived for 9 years and never encountered a man in any of these roles. What on Earth is going to happen when she goes to high school and there are men all over the place as staff and fellow pupils ?

He isn't BU by any stretch of the imagination - but I would imagine all will be fine, especially given the numbers, your DD's age, etc.

My dad still insists on me having female taxi drivers "just in case" - I am 31!!

Just to add at most leisure centres dc can swim unaccompanied at public swim times from age 8 (I think ours is actually 9 but I know others are 8)

I would be reluctant and might not allow this. The dad may be lovely and entirely trustworthy but the set up of the changing areas leaves the unaccompanied female child at a disadvantage.

Yes, the boys are also unaccompanied by an adult but they can get changed together so are at a lower risk. The female child is getting changed alone, and as others have said, might need some help if she gets into a tangle with her clothes. Or she might feel uneasy about the adults in the changing village area but has no one there to keep an eye out for her.

At that age, my children could dry and dress themselves but I don’t think I’d have been waiting in the cafe. I’d have stood outside the cubicle where they were changing. I would have been happy with a trusted school mum friend to do this job in my absence, less so a school dad friend for all the reasons already mentioned.

"Everyone here is just guessing why the Ops partner / child’s father is uncomfortable about his partner and child dealing with a “male parent"."

I would have the same opinion if it were a female.

I got abused by a family friend who took me swimming along with his own family. That was in the context of a leisure swim though where there is communal changing/swimming etc. Not sure if that is the case here. I would not allow male parents to take children to communal changing rooms based on this experience.

@ferretface individual cubicles and a child that needs no help

[quote explodingeyes]@Hertsgirl10 I said 90% of Yr6. Not Yr5
Mine aren't age 30. (No idea where that same from)
One is a similar age in key stage 2 and one is key stage3
I worked in leisure facilities for years, as involved in numerous kids organisations, am a school Governor and a safeguarding lead.
I do not see the massive risk in a situation where the child is never alone with an adult she knows well. [/quote]
@explodingeyes

Wasn’t it you that said your children were 28 and 30 one married and with a child?
When you said that my children would grow up having social anxiety because I don’t let strangers take them places.

I don't think I'd push back on this. If your DH has picked up a bad vibe from the guy or doesn't feel entirely comfortable with the situation I'd simply agree and make a different arrangement. I'd expect as much from my DH if it was me feeling odd about such a situation.

@HangingOutWithTheSandman

But where exactly is the opportunity to molest this child in the scenario OP described. That's why people are saying it's fine.

I hate even talking about this subject. But abusers will find a way.

By letting the child go with this man, you are teaching her that he is a trusted adult. It may happen at swimming or at some point in the future because he has been allowed to build a bond ...groom this child. This is often how things begin. And mum and/or dad would never have thought it because they know him and trust him. Sometimes the child doesn’t feel they can tell anyone. Sometimes they tell and are not even believed. OP has already said she trusts this man completely, which is utterly ridiculous. This man may be lovely, but maybe not. Having complete trust in someone means you won’t think as OP has shown. And what if one day her daughter does say something happened or even she just feels uncomfortable at a comment he made.....’oh no daughter, not him, I trust him completely, there’s ‘less that zero’ chance of that’. Because that happens. And if OP is already saying she has complete trust in him, it’s more likely.

So what's the alternative? Have children with no trusted adults that are males? Uncles,grandparents, teachers,coaches etc?

I'm a survivor (more than once) . If I were to use my experiences to risk asses then she'd never be around a male ever. Not even friends or classmates. No school trips. No residential. No relationship with any male in the family. Not even in our own house while I'm around.

@explodingeyes had you mixed up with another poster, my apologies no wonder you was confused 😂

I'm on the dad's side. He's uncomfortable and wants to protect his child and that should be enough. It's interesting (and admirable) he gets to dismiss the "not all men" angst about potential hurt feelings and just say I'm not comfortable so no.

Our DD was 14 - considerably older than the child in this scenario - and her abuser was a very pleasant man whom we trusted.
It didn't happen in a public place like a swimming pool but, on the other hand, my DD wasn't a little girl having to get dressed or undressed. I think that it's also worth remembering that swimming gives an abuser a lot of opportunities to touch children whilst playing or "helping" them. There was a famous case, years ago, of an ex-Coronation Street actor being prosecuted for exactly that. If I remember rightly, he was convicted.

I agree that it's sad that we have to think like this, but I wish that I had been more suspicious. My DD had to have counselling but so did we, because we were so guilt-stricken that we hadn't realised the danger. Our counsellor said that he would probably be unable to identify a potential abuser, even with his current job in child protection and his previous career in the police and the probation service. Abusers are always nice people - if they weren't, they wouldn't get near our kids.

This man may very well be okay but I wouldn't risk it.

@Hertsgirl10 no definitely not me.
My DC are similar ages or were recently. They go / went to a large primary and have vast networks of friends. The type of scenario OP describes would be perfectly normal in circles I know. Parents share lifts and all sorts for a variety of things including swimming. Mine have done it. (At their school two male teachers take all the Yr4 swimming to the type of baths described and DC get no assistance). They walk to and from school on their own, which isn't at all unusual and most do the same from Yr5. Tons of their activities including 1-1 music lessons are with males.
They are well aware of all the stuff that they are taught from very early eg stranger danger & pants rule etc

OP, I think you need to have a proper conversation with your DH because he is irrational - playdates where there is ZERO chance of anyone catching him abusing your daughter is fine but swimming is not. What is the difference? The difference is that at swimming your daughter may be in a swimming costume etc. It suggests to me that he is, obviously unconsciously, sexualising perfectly normal activities for a 9 year old and this is something I'd suggest he needs to examine in his own head now before it becomes an issue. I feel fairly certain that if this is his instinct during swimming lessons when she's 9, that it's pretty likely he's going to want to be much more restrictive with her than any brothers she may have as she gets older in terms of independence etc. Is he going to be policing her clothing too?

All of these things are, obviously, with the best of intentions but I think good men today need to be really thinking about how they treat and think about their daughters.

Ifonlyidknownthen

Personally I'd just take my own DD so that I could be the one to supervise her in the changing rooms and make sure she's safe. 8 is too young imo to expect her to do this alone and the dad will not be allowed to, nor should he, oversee this

I'm asking again as it's been ignored previously.

Would you be OK with boys that age coming into the female changing rooms? Because mums can't go on the men's and 8 year olds are apparently too young to manage on their own.
Only whenever a mum posts about taking boys in with her she gets told they are too old to be in the ladies and should be more than capable of changing on their own.

@perfectstorm

Not sure what is unpleasant, spiteful, angry or dogged about pointing out the inaccuracy of your post and the assumptions you made (while accusing me of making assumptions) about whether I have children and if I do, whether they are NT.

Your point about intimate care had no relevance, as the OP had already made clear. Your implication that parents who think this is ok are inviting abuse is pretty horrible, as is your statement that many of those people's children will be abused. And just in case you are tempted, don't try a PP's argument that only people with experience of abuse can possibly understand, because that doesn't work either.

There should be a topic in Talk called "Tell me I'm right" where posters like this can ignore any alternative point of view.

@BlingLoving

OP, I think you need to have a proper conversation with your DH because he is irrational - playdates where there is ZERO chance of anyone catching him abusing your daughter is fine but swimming is not. What is the difference? The difference is that at swimming your daughter may be in a swimming costume etc. It suggests to me that he is, obviously unconsciously, sexualising perfectly normal activities for a 9 year old and this is something I'd suggest he needs to examine in his own head now before it becomes an issue. I feel fairly certain that if this is his instinct during swimming lessons when she's 9, that it's pretty likely he's going to want to be much more restrictive with her than any brothers she may have as she gets older in terms of independence etc. Is he going to be policing her clothing too?

All of these things are, obviously, with the best of intentions but I think good men today need to be really thinking about how they treat and think about their daughters.

Very well said. Nip this in the bud with your DP.

The rest is bonkers. Of course it's ok to do this rotation with the other parents.

After reading your updates and seeing the fact the Dad isn’t even involved in the swimming session or in helping them get changed in any way, there’s just no concern here at all for me. She’s almost nine so won’t require any assistance and he just sits in a cafe waiting for them. He’s also someone you have known for many years and trust so not a complete random. I think your DH is being paranoid.

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a risk - of course it is a risk, but they can't have no risks in their lives (the swimming lessons are a risk too! But then so is not learning how to swim). What every individual has to do is work out how much of a risk (chance of it happening x consequences of it happening) they think it is and act accordingly. And mitigate risks when they can.

@Georgy12

I mean yea I know, I’m not the one that needs educating here so there’s no need for the sarcasm is there.

My point is I won’t leave my children with anyone I don’t know and 100% trust, male or female.

And I don’t think we can really get an accurate stat on how many boys have been sexually harassed because as we all know, males are much less likely to speak out.

Either way I won’t put my children at any risk, regardless of a persons gender who offers to do something that I am more than capable of doing.