DP uncomfortable about a school run dad taking DD swimming

[Eastie77Returns]

DD (8) will be attending swimming lessons at a new venue in the New Year. There are a couple of other kids in her class who attend lessons at the same pool, I am friends with both sets of parents. I was chatting to the dad of one of the kids and he mentioned that he and and the other child’s mum take it in turns to take both children swimming each week. He asked if I’d like to join the ‘rotation’ which would mean taking all 3 kids every 3 weeks and I said I’d be happy to. We all live a few minutes walk from each other and DD knows the 2 boys well. I’d already discussed this with the other mum so she is on board.

DP has announced he is uncomfortable about the arrangement as there is a male parent involved (when I originally mentioned the plan to him he thought it would only be mums). I think he is being absolutely ridiculous, I have known the school dad since our children were 2 years old and DD adores him.

However I discussed this with a friend who said she 100% understands why DP is unhappy and I need to see this from his point of view. AIBU??

@perfectstorm

I think the assumption that all kids can manage as well as your own is perhaps misplaced.

This is about the OP's child, not mine (about whom you know nothing) and unlike you I am not assuming anything - by the time you posted she had made it perfectly clear that her DD was capable of changing by herself. She had also made it clear that the man in question would be walking the children to and from the pool and waiting in the cafe while they were swimming. And yet you still spouted this rubbish about the DD being at risk while he performed "unsupervised intimate care". Absolute nonsense.

For those asking what is the risk and when will he have the opportunity. Predators can and do abuse children in few seconds if given the opportunity, and sexual abuse isn’t just rape. I was abused right in front of my family disguised as play fight at the age of 11 and I didn’t have the words to speak up but my discomfort was obvious and it continued to happen for many months, always at home as he was left alone with me. They trusted him like the op trusts her male friend and because of that they saw everything he was doing as innocent. Some people can’t see danger in the people closest to them.
Why are some posters asking “ would you leave your son with a woman” since when are women a danger to boys or girls, they must live in a different world to me.

*doesn’t trust your partner?

As I've already pointed out, DD has been to his house for play dates over the last 8 years. On occasion in the last couple of years we have left her there (birthday parties, playing after school with his son and other kids) which would have given him ample opportunity to practice evil deeds.

@Eastie77Returns if I was you, I’d ask him why he is feeling comfortable with dd staying at his for play dates and even sleepovers but he isn’t comfortable with him taking her to the swimming pool.

For me it makes no sense. I’d be more careful with a sleepover than with swimming lessons tbh.
But he might have other worries/different outlook and it might be interesting to see what he think.

I have to say if he is comfortable with her staying there for the night, I’m thinking what he is more uncomfortable ‘because men aren’t supposed to be left alone with young girls at the swimming pool’.

I’d also say that if it is right that you shouldn’t be over ridding him and not take his POV into account, this also works in reverse and he shouldn’t be over ridding your POV and act as if whatever he says goes either….
For me, that means atbthe very least being able to explain why he is uncomfortable so that some sort of compromise can be found. Incl him taking responsibility for his dd to go swimming wo all the work falling into your shoulders if the only possible answer for him is ‘you are the inky one who take her swimming’

@JTK50, in that case, the OP shouldn’t leave he dd going to play dates with him and his house. Nor should the OP’s DH be happy for her to stay overnight.

But HE IS. Her DH is happy for his dd to do all that. But somehow swimming is not ok….

@Untang13d

I’m staggered. Posters are actually saying all men should be regarded as abusers so all our sons are literally potential abusers in waiting.

Utterly bonkers!

Utterly utterly bonkers! This post makes me very sad!

Lostforideas just to clarify that DD has never stayed overnight but has stayed on her own for play dates etc.

JTK50 when are women ever a danger to boys and girls? Ask the families of Arthur Labinjo-Huges and Star Hobson. Tragic cases that may not have involved sexual abuse (although who knows) but the idea that women are never a threat to children is ludicrous.

We’d let the kids go and do stuff with the neighbours and we have the neighbours kids round all the time. That includes swimming, having a go at paddle boarding, visiting the beach, playing round each other’s houses for hours at a time, going to local shops and all manner of other things. Fact is anyone could be a potential abuser even if it’s your husband or your brother or someone you knew since you were two. One of a really tight knit group of friends my husband went to school with pled guilty to various counts related to indecent images of children when I was pregnant with our eldest. I would never have guessed it and I’m aware other men (& albeit much less likely other women) could be a risk but at the same time it’s much more likely to be fine and we all enjoy the sense of community with the kids freely moving between houses & playing. We’ve talked to the girls about their personal space and how people need to respect it and about private parts and how we don’t share those and that if they are ever unhappy or uncomfortable they should tell us. I don’t think your OH is unreasonable to have some degree of caution but I also would question if it’s good for kids to deny them lots of options to try and eliminate fairly small risks.

I am with you OP, I was a social worker on an initial assessment team (child protection), and I would have no concerns in the situation being proposed.

You’ve known him for years, your daughter has had multiple play dates at his house. He has had ample opportunity in the past if he had nefarious intents.
Swimming rota would mean one lesson in three he would walk all the kids to the pool, they would get changed in a unisex village in separate cubicles and go to their lesson. Come back after lessons to get changed again in separate cubicles when the village will be full of parents and carers hurrying up their child so they can go home.

How on earth would that be an ideal place to decide to abuse a child when they could have done it in their own home. There are all kinds of red flags for someone wanting to be inappropriately close to a child such as excessive tickling and engineering babysitting but standing in a changing village telling three kids to hurry up and get their socks on isn’t one.

It would be a mixed cubicle environment as they do not have male/female changing rooms at this pool. It’s a changing ‘village’ with individual cubicles

I was already erring towards your dps side and with the above info

Hell no!

There are a lot more of these creeps about than people realise and they very often present as perfectly normal friendly people - my dad did! He wasn't!

When I disclosed to childhood friends and their parents many years later the majority were genuinely shocked and would never have thought that's what he was.

They knew him for 20+ years

They had no clue

With my own experiences I would never have let my dd be part of such an arrangement

Interesting that as some have noted, children are most likely to suffer abuse at the hands of a male relative but presumably no one on this thread would have a problem with their DH/Dad/Grandfather taking their DD swimming despite the statistically greater risk.

We tend to know if our male relatives present a risk or not. I wouldn't allow my father literally within arms reach of dd. If you look into the more publicised cases where the male relative has abused a child and a parent didn't protect in many cases the parent did know but was so messed up by their own abuse and/or so afraid of the same person they were incapable of protecting their child. Mners who know their male relatives aren't like this are in a different scenario altogether

@Clymene you're really not hot on safeguarding at all

The ‘opportunity’ for any adult to abuse a child in this setting and scenario is very low.

Actually sounds pretty high to me! Lots of adults about BUT focused on their own dc. A predator could easily take advantage of this situation

a close relative is a social worker

Then frankly why haven't you sounded them out? I'm thinking cos you know exactly what they'd say!

Quite honestly I'm disgusted at the number of people on thread dismissing the concerns of those of us who have survived csa and so know what it's like to do so!

I have never left dd with a sole male I didn't know EXTREMELY well because of being a survivor

I think that's understandable and sensible NOT paranoid.

Men are more likely to be sexual predators that's fact.

I wouldn't allow this either I simply wouldn't take the risk.

@Eastie77Returns I was clearly referring to sexual abuse.

My point is that women can and do abuse children yet we don't feel kids are unsafe with them! I feel terribly sad that all men are looked at with such suspicions, especially as I have 2 sons. I'm not scoffing at the statistics, merely pointing out that children are never 100% safe, especially as most of them know their abusers, but unless the child will be alone with an adult, chances are very high they'll be safe

Again, other children in the swimming class will have fathers with them. There will be other men in the changing area.

Can anyone explain to me why this man is somehow more of a risk to DD's daughter than any other father in that changing area?

Are the same people who are saying that OP shouldn't put her DD in this situation saying that NO men should be in the unisex changing area? Is OP's DH going to demand that all men be removed from the changing area while DD changes, or just this guy? The guy who he actually KNOWS?

Because I simply cannot get their logic.

@ilovegingercats

I wouldn't allow this either I simply wouldn't take the risk.

What risk? The risk of him walking with DD and the two boys? Or the risk of him standing in the unisex changing room with all the other fathers? And could you actually explain to me what the risk is to DD of him doing either of those things?

@saraclara

Again, other children in the swimming class will have fathers with them. There will be other men in the changing area.

Can anyone explain to me why this man is somehow more of a risk to DD's daughter than any other father in that changing area?

Are the same people who are saying that OP shouldn't put her DD in this situation saying that NO men should be in the unisex changing area? Is OP's DH going to demand that all men be removed from the changing area while DD changes, or just this guy? The guy who he actually KNOWS?

Because I simply cannot get their logic.

Well firstly I do think changing rooms should be single sex. I don’t think women and girls should need to change in front of/alongside unknown men and boys. I also think there should be far better changing facilities with private family rooms/areas.

But if my child was changing in a mixed environment I’d like to be supervising and supporting them to ensure they are able to be kept safe/private from unknown people while changing.

@Eastie77Returns

Thank you to those of you with balanced responses that have brought some sanity to the thread!

I've taken on board the comments that I cannot simply disregard DP's feelings. Fair enough. He has misgivings that he cannot articulate beyond "it is not appropriate" but I'm not going to just ride roughshod over this feelings.

However, laying that aside, some of the attitudes and comments on here are perplexing and depressing to say the least.

I see people are still commenting on the dangers of the lift share, DD being the last one left in the car...once again the dad will not be driving. Everyone walks to the swimming pool.

I’ve been accused of being lax because I’m not supervising DD whilst she swims. She’s attending a swimming lesson so there is a teacher and a lifeguard in the pool. No supervision from parents required.

I'm reading that some of you have 9 & 10 year old children who cannot dry and dress themselves/feel uncomfortable doing so and I'm putting DD at risk because she "might need help". Help with what? I’ve never met a NT 9 year old who cannot use a a towel and put their own clothes on. KS1 Primary school aged children who attend PE and swimming lessons have to do this on their own as teachers cannot help 30+ children.

As I've already pointed out, DD has been to his house for play dates over the last 8 years. On occasion in the last couple of years we have left her there (birthday parties, playing after school with his son and other kids) which would have given him ample opportunity to practice evil deeds. Instead, many of you think it is entirely feasible that he is going to wait until he takes DD swimming every 3 weeks, find some pretext to go into the changing village and engineer his way into her locked cubicle and then attempt to abuse her with other children close by.

Alternatively I've also read that he might try to abuse her on the walk home from the swimming pool whilst the other children walk on ahead. I can't even fathom what kind of scenario that would involve

I'm aware many paedophiles brazenly abuse children in plain sight and I'm not trying to make light of the very real and serious issue of child sexual abuse but some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous. I'm not even going to comment on the "I've never left my DD with a man apart from DH" except to say that level of mistrust sounds exhausting and stressful.

Totally where I was coming from. I can not think of one parent of a 9/10 year old that wouldn't think it was totally fine. For exactly the reasons you state.

I can see both sides and the dad probably thought it would be a good idea and he would only have to do it every third week and not every second week. If it is for lessons, it will be a busy place with other kids and parents milling about. If she is more than capable of getting dressed herself I don't see the problem. When my kids were that age, they got themselves dressed and I waited out in the reception area. Don't see what the problem is. Think people are thinking to much into this. Have you asked your child if she is happy with the arrangement. If hubby not happy is he going to do the swimming run.

@MrsPnut

I am with you OP, I was a social worker on an initial assessment team (child protection), and I would have no concerns in the situation being proposed.

You’ve known him for years, your daughter has had multiple play dates at his house. He has had ample opportunity in the past if he had nefarious intents.
Swimming rota would mean one lesson in three he would walk all the kids to the pool, they would get changed in a unisex village in separate cubicles and go to their lesson. Come back after lessons to get changed again in separate cubicles when the village will be full of parents and carers hurrying up their child so they can go home.

How on earth would that be an ideal place to decide to abuse a child when they could have done it in their own home. There are all kinds of red flags for someone wanting to be inappropriately close to a child such as excessive tickling and engineering babysitting but standing in a changing village telling three kids to hurry up and get their socks on isn’t one.

Great post.

People are so over the top on here. Very very low risk. The idea that all men are abusers is horrible. And the comments - looking for children without "And attentive mother" so no dad can take their kid swimming?!
I'd have never been allowed as a child then because my mum died very young. In many people's world this means my dad could never have taken my friends swimming (he did). She is also nearly 9 not 3 she just needs and adult there and back not to dress her!!

@Eastie77Returns

Thank you to those of you with balanced responses that have brought some sanity to the thread!

I've taken on board the comments that I cannot simply disregard DP's feelings. Fair enough. He has misgivings that he cannot articulate beyond "it is not appropriate" but I'm not going to just ride roughshod over this feelings.

However, laying that aside, some of the attitudes and comments on here are perplexing and depressing to say the least.

I see people are still commenting on the dangers of the lift share, DD being the last one left in the car...once again the dad will not be driving. Everyone walks to the swimming pool.

I’ve been accused of being lax because I’m not supervising DD whilst she swims. She’s attending a swimming lesson so there is a teacher and a lifeguard in the pool. No supervision from parents required.

I'm reading that some of you have 9 & 10 year old children who cannot dry and dress themselves/feel uncomfortable doing so and I'm putting DD at risk because she "might need help". Help with what? I’ve never met a NT 9 year old who cannot use a a towel and put their own clothes on. KS1 Primary school aged children who attend PE and swimming lessons have to do this on their own as teachers cannot help 30+ children.

As I've already pointed out, DD has been to his house for play dates over the last 8 years. On occasion in the last couple of years we have left her there (birthday parties, playing after school with his son and other kids) which would have given him ample opportunity to practice evil deeds. Instead, many of you think it is entirely feasible that he is going to wait until he takes DD swimming every 3 weeks, find some pretext to go into the changing village and engineer his way into her locked cubicle and then attempt to abuse her with other children close by.

Alternatively I've also read that he might try to abuse her on the walk home from the swimming pool whilst the other children walk on ahead. I can't even fathom what kind of scenario that would involve

I'm aware many paedophiles brazenly abuse children in plain sight and I'm not trying to make light of the very real and serious issue of child sexual abuse but some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous. I'm not even going to comment on the "I've never left my DD with a man apart from DH" except to say that level of mistrust sounds exhausting and stressful.

I really don’t think that mumsnet is a good forum for critical thinking!! Agree with you OP 100% . My children all survived being ferried too and from after school activities from parents of both sex,,,they are perfectly fine adults without any problems! Just because there is the odd dodgy parent in society doesn’t mean that all adults are weirdos !!

Unisex changing rooms / boy n girl + unrelated male.... If your right it still wouldn't sit right with me.... think of possible normal problems....
struggle changing wet
slip
one needs a wee
Two kids same sex easy works
Might not be extreme but I can see several chances of accidents or a split group.

At least I hope I give u a possible easy excuse out while taking your DH gut feeling into account.
I've ignored my gut feeling once or twice when younger as it was illogical (lack of any substance) but turned out my gut was spot on..... I always listen now no matter how daft I feel/sound.

OP I agree with everything you've said. Dd1's best friend has a stay at home dad so he's facilitated a lot of play dates, trips and clubs over the years. It's common for 2 working parents round here, many in techy type jobs that have flexible hours so dads are as much a part of the extra curricular activities as mums. We lift share for brownies and guides with another couple of families and it's always the dad that does one families share. The other parent in the share is a long standing teacher at our girls school. I know the swimming involves changing but OP's child confidently does not need any assistance. It doesn't even sound like the dad enters the changing (like I don't for dd8's lessons).

@Vynalbob have you only got very young children? At 9/10 they are old enough to go to toilets on their own and they don't need to all stick together in a changing facility with separate cubicles.
Parents would mainly just wait for the DC to shower and then go get themselves changed. They wouldn't generally slip on the wet floor as they aren't allowed by staff to run about.

@MrsPnut

I am with you OP, I was a social worker on an initial assessment team (child protection), and I would have no concerns in the situation being proposed.

You’ve known him for years, your daughter has had multiple play dates at his house. He has had ample opportunity in the past if he had nefarious intents.
Swimming rota would mean one lesson in three he would walk all the kids to the pool, they would get changed in a unisex village in separate cubicles and go to their lesson. Come back after lessons to get changed again in separate cubicles when the village will be full of parents and carers hurrying up their child so they can go home.

How on earth would that be an ideal place to decide to abuse a child when they could have done it in their own home. There are all kinds of red flags for someone wanting to be inappropriately close to a child such as excessive tickling and engineering babysitting but standing in a changing village telling three kids to hurry up and get their socks on isn’t one.

Thank you for your (qualified and experienced) voice of reason.