To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

Question is, what are you going to do? What would happen if you bought a tree and bought the children presents?

@nosyupnorth

Also, all of this "christmas isn't really religious" bollocks that's getting spouted in this thread is awful, it's right there is the name christmas as in christianity. some people may chose not to acknowledge the religious elements or talk about how centuries ago christians mimicked pagan traditions (in order to further their religous imperialism!) but it absolutely is a religiously based celebration and it's offensive to act as if people with other faiths are being unreasonable not to go against their beliefs just because some people feel like the christian dominance of this country is more important respecting other religions.

What are you fucking on about?

Sorry OP, I’d be taking them to my parents (and possibly not coming back). Please don’t let him inflict his irrational fears onto your children. Christmas is largely secular, nativity aside. Your conscience is already telling you this will hurt them. So tackle it now, before the damage is done.

Definitely repeating the cycle and punishing the children for it - I had a friend who left the JW and her birthdays and Christmas’s are HUGE for the kids. She enjoys it to as it was something she didn’t have.
You really need to put your foot down OP for your children’s sake. This will cause a huge rift and no doubt your children will break the cycle when they grow up - do you really want neither of you to be invited into their Christmas’s as adults?

He said he wanted the children raising atheist, you agreed. You can't call him unreasonable when you are the one who has changed your mind.

@nosyupnorth Most people's atheism doesn't involve not doing things that are nice- that's what puritanical religions do.

Atheist= not believing in god. That's all. Loads of people are atheist and still join in with any cultural festivals/activities that are amusing. God doesn't come up once at a lot of people's present giving, Xmas dinner etc.

I get what you mean that OP has changed her mind and feels it'd be nice for them to do fun 'Xmas' stuff, but I think it's a reasonable change.

Oh my goodness he’s completely out of order. He can’t make his own children feel as badly as he did, that’s cruel in the extreme.

I’m sorry he suffered so badly but he’s an adult now, he needs to exert himself for his kids. Part of that is having counselling.

Just celebrate yule, or winter solstice, or whatever but give the kids a fun time, with a tree (or something equally special), a special meal, presents etc. No religion in that at all!

You may well just have to take them to your family and leave him alone to achieve a happy celebration though

What are his redeeming features? Im sorry that he felt he went through a trauma but he sounds exhausting and honestly not worth bothering with.

@Clymene

I daren't. Not in the sense that he'd verbally or physically abuse me, he's absolutely harmless in that sense. But I know the spiel about what a painful childhood he had would start and it would trigger a depressive episode.

I don’t think you ever ever lose that tiny bit of your brain that thinks, what if it was right after all.

Things like the pandemic and climate change can make it much worse. It’s all complete and utter nonsense but it’s so hard to break the programming.

I dealt with it by accepting that if they are right, their god is not one who lives up to my moral standards and as a result, would kill me at Armageddon so I mIght as well have has much fun as I could as either he doesn’t exist and it doesn’t matter or I was going to due st his hands anyway for not worshipping him.

I’m not sure that is entirely healthy but it gets me through!

@Clymene "You are absolutely within your rights to celebrate it as a Christian event.

I am absolutely within mine to celebrate it as nothing to do with Christianity."

You are - I have no issue with people who celebrate it religously or not, but it does have religious origins and while some people chose to discard them and I respect that choice, I think it is inappropriate to pretend the religious link isn't there. Some people of other faiths are happy to celebrate christmas in a way that is not focused on religion and that's fine for them; but for others celebrating an event which has the origins of worshipping the 'son of god' in the christian faith is simply not acceptable because of religious incompatibility and it can be very uncomfortable to have people try to insist that they should ignore that and take part in christmas simply because it is the majority celebration in the UK as a byproduct of the nation being culturally christian even if not directly associated with faith.

(this isn't specific to you btw, but yours was the most concise of several replies on this subject and I do think the fact not everybody is comfortable with waving away the origins of Christmas is getting badly ignore in this thread)

Most people who celebrate Christmas aren't remotely religious. So take out the nativity for arguments sake - there's lots that the kids can do. Baking, Christmas lights, elf, Father Christmas & so on. Take them to your parents! I'm not a huge fan of Christmas but kids love it. DH sounds rather joyless.

His mother was an emotionally abusive narcissist on top of JW. Being JW was the ideal religion for her as the very main teaching of it is that they are better than everybody else.

She's a nasty, nasty woman. And also has always been very severely unwell. DH lived his childhood in pepertual fear of everything. Of his mum, of God, of Satan, of Christmas, of his friends.

What a difficult situation, no wonder he is traumatised from his upbringing and family alienation.

However he isn't being fair to DD, every man and his dog celebrates Christmas around here, it is a very diverse area with people from different backgrounds and religions.

His trauma isn't yours, if he won't get help I'd let him go.

I would point out that he is possibly conditioned by the JW and the atheism has become his new rigid religion in itself.

And definitely I would probably rethink the relationship if he won't get help, he sounds v messed up by his upbringing.

She used to tell him he was upsetting Jehovah by making friends and talking to the other kids at school so he stopped.

I'd say he's closer to agnostic than atheist.

He says he doesn't believe, but he's still hedging his bets 'just in case'.

Good luck pulling the root of his particular sickness out.

That’s not just his mum that’s one of their teachings.

@ohganggang

He is becoming exhausting now, to be honest. I've broken my back trying to be patient with him and carry his traumas for him.

You need to stop doing that. His trauma will damage his children more with each year that passes. It's not just about Christmas, is it?

You are enabling him and facilitating him damaging his children. This has to stop, and he has to very more counselling, or you will have broken adult offspring eventually.

This year you take your kids to your parents for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Let then experience Christmas unfettered and fully. Since it means nothing to your DH he should be fine alone.

Then you tell him that you're not prepared to go on like this. That he's a parent and his children's psychological health needs to be his priority. And while he's still messed up and visiting his trauma on them, they cannot be healthy. He has to go to counselling and he has to let his children live normally, or your marriage is over.

I never say to LTB, but if you stay with him and nothing changes, you will be 50% responsible for the damage he wreaks on your children. It's awful that you've pandered to this and put them last for so long.

@maddening

I agree. I've been thinking myself he's just gone from one cult mindset to another. The ex-JW communities he is in still obsess over it, watch all of the content the governing body release as soon as it comes out (to rip it to shreds), share their traumas with each other and compare them all of the time.

There is no sense of putting it in the past, dealing with it, and moving on. He is extremely bitter.

Although having read your update I'd say God wasn't the thing he most feared. It was his Mother's judgement.

He should sort out his issues and not projecting them on your dc. That's so cruel... poor kids

I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine

Please don’t complain to the nursery. It’s lovely that they are celebrating, and even if children have a different culture at home, they can still join in. The issues in your family are caused by you and your husband, not the nursery.

atheism has become his new rigid religion in itself.

Yes. He needs to recognise that he is being as controlling as his mother, but within a different belief/non-belief system

Throw him back. He’s awful, what on earth do you see in him?!
Poor kids, you need to leave him to wallow in his misery and make a better life for your family. This is not about Christmas. He’s just as awful as his mother.