To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

@HailAdrian

I actually think people are being really closed-minded and harsh here. His behaviour isn't ok but tbh it sounds as though he isn't mentally well, maybe he has PTSD or something. I feel sad for his younger self. He needs help and you shouldn't pander to this but I don't think he's the awful bastard everyone is making him out to be and I do think if it was you saying you were traumatised by Xmas, they would be more understanding. 🤷‍♀️

I agree he might do, he isn't making any effort to address this though and just seems to want to pass on generational trauma.

I am so sorry you are experiencing this

He won’t have counselling . How about you say it’s a deal breaker so you want to do couples counselling so you can find a way through it. This way- the focus is not on him, the pressure. However - it will all come out and he will have the space to deal with it , or start to deal with it.

My family growing up was hindu. We lived in the 60s and 70s , when it was acceptable to put up signs saying “no BDI” - blacks, dogs, Irish and we were all spat at for being “paki”. However - that didn’t stop my parents from wanting to make their children enjoy the community event like everyone else did . We didn’t have turkey but a chicken, and the sides had spices and flavours . We didn’t go to church and yet carols were enjoyed for their musicality . But we had presents and excitement and happy family time . It was a special family time and we loved it. Though my parents would not be offended by us being exposed to religion - we didn’t get involved in church etc . If they had put their foot down, it would be a bigger deal. Absences are obvious - and would make it a big deal for your daughter. However - A low key Christmas full of traditions you make up that suit YOUR family celebrating their time together can’t be objected to. There is absolutely no need to bring religion or to make it a big thing. Start small. A little tree , kids stockings . But make the day aboit time together - Family Games and family walks and a nice meal of all your favourites and presents from you to each other .

My in laws were Christian and English - but their Christmas was awful as various family members died in the early years during the festive period and it became a very triggering time. So they stopped celebrating and my husband finds it very upsetting still. But he can’t really complain with the day anymore as he just has a nice family day and seeing his children happy heals his heart

One of the secret joys of parents is to get to have a 2nd childhood. I didn’t get Xmas as a child but do now it’s great I love it I’ve learnt to swim and roller skate.

It’s not good enough not to have therapy and sort this out. He should do it for his kids.

Bringing them up atheists is as controlling as forcing religion on them, they should be free to believe what they believe in their hearts.

Children aren’t the parents to control and indoctrinate like his mum did to him, he has to better than her.

Imagine what’s posts your children will write about this in 20 years . . .

His behaviour is totally unreasonable and selfish. Both my best friend and my wife grew up in cult like religions (one JW one a different but similar one). The JW didnt do Christmas as a child at all, the other was allowed only church stuff, Santa was banned, living in the end days etc.

Both women now deal with their trauma in appropriate ways and provide lovely Christmases for their children. Because that is what is right- they would both be dragged over hot coals rather than visit the misery they went through on their children.

@ohganggang

JW's are anti-birthday as well but he's okay with birthday's for himself and the DC and if anything goes over the top. He always treats himself to a nice birthday cake of his choice etc.

But anything remotely to do with religion he just rejects.

Christmas doesn't have to be to do with religion though. I reckon these days there are more non-religious than religious people celebrating Christmas.

I think he is being unreasonable but it is obviously because of his trauma so it's sort of understandable. He does need to seek therapy though because he shouldn't be letting this impact so massively on you and his children.

I have a friend whose mum was JW and when she was little the family were not allowed to celebrate Christmas. She does feel like she missed out and now as an adult she is not JW and celebrates Christmas heartily every year. I feel sad for her lack of childhood Christmasses though.

Re schools

All schools I know in England celebrate Christmas.

My own primary school does. We are a very multi-cultural school and have several children who don't celebrate Christmas at home.
However this has never been an issue. All just enjoy the celebrations and take part. Not a single child was stopped from being in the (traditional) nativity plays this year. We have had none who haven't been allowed to join in with the Christmas workshop or the Christmas parties. All are allowed to be involved in Father Christmas visiting classes to deliver a class gift today.
When it comes to craft etc we usually tell the children they can be Christmas related or winter related.

We also have an Eid party during the year, we acknowledge a range of other festivals and often do craft type activities related to them during our cross curricular topic work.

It's very unlikely school will decide to stop celebrating Christmas there, even if you complain. The likelihood is that your child would be taken to one side to do something else, whilst the others do their Christmas activities.

My DH is in a similar situation - JW family, shunned, the whole bit. He is the opposite to your DH, he loves Christmas, no religion involved, just loves the whole festive season. Your DH sounds crazy - he was traumatised so he's decided to traumatise his kids in the same way. In your situation I'd ignore his angst and decorate the house, put up the tree, buy the gifts. If he doesn't like it maybe he can spend Christmas in the bedroom or something.

Has he ever had help for his trauma? That's where he needs to start.

As for nursery, why didn't you tell them about the situation? You can't raise a complaint when they knew nothing off your home life over this.

OP I am in same situation as you, married to someone who was brought up JW. Fortunately he was never baptised and so has not been shunned. His Dad however was although he remained married to his Mom its all a very weird crazy situation.

DH will talk about stuff but is very guarded, we do do Christmas etc. I am not religious at all and neither is my family. In our house Christmas is about Santa and presents. He goes along with it but never gets into it like a normal person does. It's so hard for anyone who is not in the situation to understand as they see it as very black and white but its really not that simple when you have been brought up your entire life being brainwashed into believing something.
We have situations in his family where certain members are struggling with life as they do not wish to be JW but are trapped. Its really hard.
Our children do not go to a religious school, that is something you need to think about. While they learn about religion it is not put upon them in the same way. They do nativitys but they are not about God and Jesus in the same way.
Your DH needs to not deprive kids of the magic of Xmas but I doubt he'll ever change. Could you go and stay with your parents over the few days of Xmas? Keep him out of it. Let the kids have a tree in their room or something like that. You have to be strong they are your children and he does not get to do to them what was done to him. Its your life to you don't have to change for him you do your thing he can do his. He will over the years start to get involved in some way I'm sure.

Xmas now is mostly a commercial matter with some pagan origins. Your DH is a spoil sport. He is being mean to his children - don't put him first.

I dont think there is anything wrong with him not wanting to celebrate Christmas in any way, but I do think his reasoning behind it is just as damaging as the damage he suffered.

Have you tried telling him this? Is he open to the idea that his own personal issues may be clouding his judgement and affecting his children? If he is, then maybe you can work with it. If he is just defensive and in denial, then unless he seeks counselling then maybe its time to have a rethink about the future with him.

This has to be one of the most saddest post I have seen. Your DH suffered trauma as a child, yes but He then carries this on with his own family The only way to deal with his trauma is for him to seek help.
With regard to schools and Christmas What you have to remember is this is a Christian country and Christmas is celebrated and really it is no longer for a lot of people about religion it is about celebrating as a family together and sharing. A close friend of mine is catholic. Her husband hates anything about religion but they have the most lovely Christmas enjoying each other’s and there DC time together. Giving gifts and even visiting friends and family. Religion in their Christmas takes no part. It doesn’t have too. Your DC xoild grow to resent their DF when they get older unless he deals with HIS trauma and moves forward.
DC are only young once. With it without religion involved Christmas is a magical time of the year. Why not rename it. Say to your DC aww call Christmas « family Day» or anything. Then put up your decorations and celebrate. I really wish you well as it must be so hard for you.

Best wishes 💐

I had a very similar childhood to your DH and also escaped. I am now atheist too. I love Xmas because I want allowed to have it even a kid do make the most of it now! There is nothing religious about Xmas imo - it's eating, drinking, meeting friends and for the kids. I think it is strange he feels this way - its not like it gives him bad memories is it!

I’d be putting my foot down if I were you. He’s making your kids entire lives about his childhood, and that’s not okay.

My best friend was raised by JWs and as we’ve been friends many years I’ve watched her go from thinking it’s just a normal religion like any other to understanding that it’s actually a cult that damaged her and her family. But that’s work she did on her own.

I’m an atheist who was raised that way, and I’ve always done Christmas as a social family togetherness type thing. And I’m raising my son with no religion but we’re still doing Christmas.

I don’t think not having Christmas is automatically damaging your kids, but I do think your husband needs to work on his trauma rather than just issuing a blanket ban on what upsets him.

Having a traumatic childhood is sad, but it’s not a “get your own way FREE” card.

If he can't cope with the kids having a Christmas, then he needs to remove himself for it. Send him to Travelodge for a couple of nights while you and the kids eat drink and be merry. He can come home when it's all over.
Theres nothing religious about our Christmas either.

he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on.

This stood out to me. He wants his kids to miss out on the childhood joy that he missed out on, so he doesn't feel bad? He literally wants them to miss the joy he missed out on, because missing out on it made him feel terrible. Wtf.

As someone in a similar position to your husband, I do Christmas but I take it back to a more generic celebration of family, gift giving etc make it fun without teh religious stuff. I do get triggered with a lot of things to do with religion including carols, I try to think of it more as what it Christmas was pre chrtians which
borrows a lot from Saturnalia.

I'd talk to him you are repeating your trauma to your kids you can't do Christmas and carrying on the trauma legacy. Just make it commercial and about fun and giving etc.

I'm sorry to say, but it is possible DH inherited some of his mother's MH issues. I'm just astounded (and concerned) that he won't get help. He may even need medication at this time of year.

I would put my foot down with this. You are celebrating. Your family is celebrating (in your house too) and if he doesn't like it, he can find somewhere else to stay for the period. OP, you have given him love, time, compassion and apparently it hasn't helped so it's time to get a bit tougher. It may push him to a point where he realises he needs help.

Stop putting your husband before your children.

If you carry on the way you are, ie by excusing your husbands abhorrent behaviour, your children will leave as soon as they possibly can, and go no contact. You will never see them again.

Let's hope they have the strength to not continue the cycle down to their kids.

Yes, he had an horrific childhood. Good people accept that, seek counselling if need be, and dont repeat the mistakes. You don't get to say 'yes I kicked my baby in the head but it's because my dad did that to me. Give me sympathy.'

How is what he is doing to his kids any different to what his mum did to him? Yet you call her all the names under the sun but he is apparently wonderful. Nope, they are cut from the same cloth.

Bunnies at easter have nothing to do with Christianity, so this proves it is about control for him, not religion. It is all on his terms. Just like his mum?

Exactly how emotionally damaged to your want you own kids to be? Because history is repeating itself in your family.

He may be narcissistic and abusive in his own way because of what happened to him. It is not uncommon to repeat what was done by the abuser.

It sounds like he's made your life smaller. Do you avoid things that would potentially make him sulk or kick off?

Look up covert narcissist.

Have you told him how damaging the way he behaves is?

He refuses to get help and that is what he desperately needs.
This would be a deal breaker, as in telling him he gets professional treatment and actively works on the problems or you are gone.

I was JW as a child and I admit I do tend to get a bit jealous of the children having these lovely experiences and also beings annoyed being the one that has had to facilitate it all after not having any of that done for myself. However, what's the alternative? Make them feel like crap too when everybody else is having fun? Pulling them out of classes when they do Christmas activities did they become that 'weird kid'?

Sometimes I laugh with my brother about our experiences growing up but you can't dwell on it otherwise you let your childhood take over your whole life.

So he wants to deal with his childhood trauma of missing out on Christmas by inflicting the same on his own kids. Fuck that, how can someone be so obtuse?