Wanting to tell 44 weeks and breech friend she's risking her baby?

[scottishlass43]

My friend is 44 weeks pregnant with a footling breech. She's determined to have a natural birth at home with another friend of ours who's a midwife. She's been declining all intervention till now and has no cut off point - she wants to let the baby come naturally and doesn't want scans or any monitoring. She refuses to consider a c-section.

She's older (late thirties) and has been waiting for several years for this baby. I have no idea why she'd risk it now.

AIBU wanting to tell her what I think? Am I (and other worried friends) overreacting? Does anyone know of anyone who's done this, and how it went?

44 weeks? That’s a very scary situation. You can tell her but I doubt she will listen if she refuses any interventions at this point. My God.

I remember someone in some hippy parenting group i was in decided to homebirth a footling breech. Quite a few years ago. They enlisted some Mary Cronk type midwife who was quite confident in breech births, which the vast majority of midwives now are absolutely not. Thankfully i think it went ok in the end, but i remember feeling quite upset about the risk she was taking. I read a bit about it. Risk of accidental decapitation just because woman may push when told not too etc. I dont know how anyone can consider risking their child like that.

Typo in my earlier post. Should have read 43 weeks, not 33.

@DropYourSword

I think people need to stop recommended contacting social services! This woman is absolutely within her rights to make this decision. SS can’t do anything!

No she isn't! Not once she reaches the threshold of putting the child at risk! Ffs

Tbh I'd ring social services.

Unless the law has changed recently, even social services cannot order an invasive medical or surgical procedure to be done without consent. It is assault.

Definitely tell her.

I’d go further than that, I’d actually inform the local NHS trust/maternity unit.

@endofthelinefinally

Back in the 80s when I was working as a hospital midwife we had a lady on the ward for daily CTG monitoring because she was 40weeks plus 10 days and had refused induction. There were signs that the fetus was getting tired and the placenta was starting to fail. Every single person on the ward spoke to her and her husband. From the Professor of obstetrics, the Senior registrar, the midwives, GP trainees. Everyone begged her to agree to induction. She refused. Every conversation was clearly documented in her notes. She went home because she refused any further monitoring. Eventually at 33 weeks the fetus died in utero. It was absolutely awful and everyone was devastated. Legally nobody could do anything because the fetus has no rights. The worst thing was that the couple tried to take legal action against the hospital. It didn't go anywhere because the records were so clear and witnessed. There is no way I would be able to go along with risking the life of my friend, her baby and my registration. But maybe the friend feels she can't just walk away.

That's awful.

On what basis was the legal action? What did they suggest the hospital should have done?

@shouldistop

Midwives also can't refuse care. We are legally obliged to attend home births even if they're against medical advice, regardless of how traumatic the situation may end up for us as well.

@littlemissalwaystired

I understand why it's got to be that way but can I just say that it's really awful that midwives are expected just to walk into what they know could be an awful situation, deliver a dead baby or one that dies in their arms when the mother has been given advice and chosen to ignore it. How would you not be absolutely furious.

And this is exactly a small Part of why lots of midwives leave or have ptsd.

@endofthelinefinally

Back in the 80s when I was working as a hospital midwife we had a lady on the ward for daily CTG monitoring because she was 40weeks plus 10 days and had refused induction. There were signs that the fetus was getting tired and the placenta was starting to fail. Every single person on the ward spoke to her and her husband. From the Professor of obstetrics, the Senior registrar, the midwives, GP trainees. Everyone begged her to agree to induction. She refused. Every conversation was clearly documented in her notes. She went home because she refused any further monitoring. Eventually at 33 weeks the fetus died in utero. It was absolutely awful and everyone was devastated. Legally nobody could do anything because the fetus has no rights. The worst thing was that the couple tried to take legal action against the hospital. It didn't go anywhere because the records were so clear and witnessed. There is no way I would be able to go along with risking the life of my friend, her baby and my registration. But maybe the friend feels she can't just walk away.

That's horrifying.

What was the basis of the legal complaint? What were they claiming the hospital should have done?

My suggestion to contact SS wasnt about forcing the delivery.

It was because she is clearly demonstrating a lack of consideration for her own childs wellbeing. Someone who can be so cavalier with their childs life has real potential to follow in the same vein during their life too.

I dealt with a case which sounds very similar to this at work. Sadly, it didn't end well. I don't understand surely mum is aware of the massive risks to them both in this situation?

I posted upthread but wanted to comment on the queries about how she knows its a footling breech if she hasn't had a scan since 20 weeks. She may have had another scan. For various reasons I had 6 scans during my last pregnancy, one very late, I think only 6 days before I gave birth.
Also at my final Midwife check she was able to tell by palpation that baby had her arm up above her head so the part immediately against the cervix was a hand rather than head. I was then sent for a growth scan (small for dates) and the sonographer confirmed the position of arm/hand. Few days later she was indeed born arm first. Luckily because she was so small her shoulders did not get stuck. So midwives can tell quite a lot by palpation.

I would be very surprised if there is not a lot of things happening 'behind' the scenes. These situations aren't common but are very very difficult. The friend midwife is in a very difficult position. I would expect the hospital she is linked to has lots of input and given documented advice on safety and some trusts will also seek legal advise in such cases. A very sad and worrying situation. Hopefully all will be well but then this will be shared amongst others and further babies will
Be risked.

I haven’t read the whole thread. Is this in the U.K.? There is no way they’d let a baby gestate for that long here would they?. If they have, then it’s very worrying.

Definitely say something. And in this scenario you can discuss stillbirth as she needs to hear it (though hopefully already has from multiple health professionals). Ultimately, unfortunately, it is her decision. But an extremely risky one.

I read an article a few months ago about the number of stillbirths following free birth and people going very overdue, sadly I can’t find it again to post again on here.

I hope it ends well but it’s extremely dangerous at this point.

OP you are doing the right thing to keep your opinions to yourself, she doesn't need negativity from you

She is not risking her baby, what utter bs some of these comments are ridiculous. How have we survived as a human race??? Do you people realise due dates are meaningless, they are just guessing

Irresponsible

@RedRobyn2021 the human race has survived but that doesn’t mean all individuals do.

@RedRobyn2021

OP you are doing the right thing to keep your opinions to yourself, she doesn't need negativity from you

She is not risking her baby, what utter bs some of these comments are ridiculous. How have we survived as a human race??? Do you people realise due dates are meaningless, they are just guessing

Really? People sharing stories of babies being born dead after going 43+ weeks is ridiculous? Are you for real?

Oh my, 44 weeks!! Unfortunately I've only heard bad outcomes from the 2 that I know who've gone over 43wks. Anecdotal, I know. But I'd be worried😟

To those asking, they said that the risks hadn't been fully explained to them. But the consultant was very careful to document everything and to always have a second person there to sign the notes. He also put everything in a letter to both parents and kept a copy. It was all very clearly explained, I was one of the people who witnessed one of the conversations.

@HW1989 www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/she-wanted-freebirth-no-doctors-online-groups-convinced-her-it-n1140096

Similar article, horrific outcome.

OP, your friend is crazy to put her baby at this much risk. She is at huge risk of a stillbirth. At her age, they wouldn't want to go much past 40 weeks, even without breech. She would be much safer to have a c-section.

@HW1989

Definitely say something. And in this scenario you can discuss stillbirth as she needs to hear it (though hopefully already has from multiple health professionals). Ultimately, unfortunately, it is her decision. But an extremely risky one.

I read an article a few months ago about the number of stillbirths following free birth and people going very overdue, sadly I can’t find it again to post again on here.

I hope it ends well but it’s extremely dangerous at this point.

If you remember where you read it I'd be interested, I've looked myself but have only found ones saying not enough data over 42 weeks

I think when pregnant people often get very focussed on the birth as the end of the pregnancy

Women dear, women.

I think I'd risk the friendship and not hold back. The placenta ages and won't carry on for ever. I'd also tell her I'm reporting her midwife friend as well.

She's risking hers and her babies life.