Wanting to tell 44 weeks and breech friend she's risking her baby?

[scottishlass43]

My friend is 44 weeks pregnant with a footling breech. She's determined to have a natural birth at home with another friend of ours who's a midwife. She's been declining all intervention till now and has no cut off point - she wants to let the baby come naturally and doesn't want scans or any monitoring. She refuses to consider a c-section.

She's older (late thirties) and has been waiting for several years for this baby. I have no idea why she'd risk it now.

AIBU wanting to tell her what I think? Am I (and other worried friends) overreacting? Does anyone know of anyone who's done this, and how it went?

I have gone down a google warren of post maturity syndrome.

Seems these babies can have issues with maintaining their blood sugar and temperature, have dry cracked skin and can lose body fat before birth - presumably they use that if the placenta is failing. I hadn't realised the over due babies could have issues after birth. Dry cracked skin alone sounds painful.

So, it's possible your friend's baby is having a hard start to life and needs some support.

I hope they are ok.

Gosh I hope your friend and her baby are ok OP. I would definitely encourage my friend to seek medical advice at this stage. Is her GP aware of this? X

@Namechangetimes100

Absolutely shocking. Wow. And people wonder why breastfeeding rates are so low! I was made to shower alone with my numb leg (due to failed epidural) and given a baby cloth to dry with. Nothing in comparison to what you went through but I was lucky enough to leave hospital 5 hours after birth.

I had my son when I was 37, and it was touch and go as he was facing downwards but upwards, I needed forceps in the end and had to have a transfusion. I do hope your friend decides to be induced in hospital.

I am glad to see the most recent update and things are ok.
OP, is the baby ok? Did he/she weigh in heavy?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I have gone down a google warren of post maturity syndrome.

Seems these babies can have issues with maintaining their blood sugar and temperature, have dry cracked skin and can lose body fat before birth - presumably they use that if the placenta is failing. I hadn't realised the over due babies could have issues after birth. Dry cracked skin alone sounds painful.

So, it's possible your friend's baby is having a hard start to life and needs some support.

I hope they are ok.

I worry more that because the placenta is failing not only is the stillbirth rate rising, but so is the likelihood of fetal distress, and the baby being born in poor condition, needing resuscitation. If they do become distressed, a post term baby is much more likely to pass meconium. Into the liquor. That they're breathing in. Meconium aspiration syndrome can be very nasty, and cause pneumothoraxes, lung inflammation, turn off the surfactant that normally keeps the alveoli (air sacs) open... This can need ventilation, chest drains, transfer to a bigger hospital away from mum...all sorts of deep unpleasantness. Best avoided if possible.

You know, it is not a black and white decision between being told what to do by a health professional who tells you if you don't do X, your baby will die; and refusing 100% of intervention even when things are so far from normal that you would be deluded to ignore them. there are a huge range of greys in between, and within those shades of grey there lie a reasonable number of options.

It is natural to wait till you're hungry before you eat anything. But if suddenly you found yourself not being hungry for 7 days in a row... wouldn't that be giving you a clue that something is wrong with your body? Wouldn't you be consulting with someone who knows more than you about how the digestive system works to find out why you are not feeling hungry? Or would you let yourself starve to death because "I know my body, and I want to feel hungry the natural way".

Getting sick is natural. Cancer is natural. Placentas malfunctioning is natural. Now we have options to NOT let nature making us very sick or killing us if we can prevent it. It is perfectly reasonable to refuse treatment for any reason you want. What is not only NOT reasonable, but actually bonkers, is expecting that each and every one of our bodies are always going to work perfectly and never malfunction. Our bodies are not perfect. We get sick. Despite how healthy we eat, and how much we take care of ourselves, some of us will still develop hypothyroidism, allergies, cancer, asthma. Despite having the perfect body and the perfect nutrition during pregnancy, some women will still develop gestational diabetes, and pre-eclampsia, and some of our placentas will fail. Sometimes milk will not come. Last month a woman in the ward almost let her newborn baby starve to death by insisting, and insisting, and insisting, that she "had enough milk" (she didn't) and that "she only wanted to feed her baby naturally" (baby would have, very naturally, died... he lost 20% of his birthweight in the first week; he was severely hypoglycemic by the time this woman saw sense).

What is with this strange denial from some people that their bodies cannot, under any possibility, do things wrong ever, and that "everything should happen the natural way". If your toddler chokes with a piece of food, will they not help her get it out? Or will they let her die, because it happened "naturally"?

Please someone explain this to me.

I wonder if it's because people try to explore that 'grey' but are met with such rigidity from health services that they pull even further away from the recommendations in an attempt to get an agreement in the middle ground. If their medical team don't budge, they move further apart.
Like a tug of war, except the medics don't move at all and the patient ends up moving back along the rope until there isn't any left and they let go (where they disengage completely, in obstetrics this would be where they opt for freebirthing).

@BiscuitLover3679 both France and the UK induce 20% of labours. And in France 80% women have an epidural/spinal (30 in UK), 44% are injected with oxytocin to speed up labour (don't think this happens much in the UK outside of induction), and only 0.3% of births are over 42 weeks (so they must induce women before that).

Sometimes milk will not come. Last month a woman in the ward almost let her newborn baby starve to death by insisting, and insisting, and insisting, that she "had enough milk" (she didn't) and that "she only wanted to feed her baby naturally" (baby would have, very naturally, died... he lost 20% of his birthweight in the first week; he was severely hypoglycemic by the time this woman saw sense).

Some breastfeeding advisors will tell women that they will always have enough milk, even if they don't as the baby is failing to thrive and losing too much weight. I had the same advice, from an advisor who hadn't actually seen the baby and had no medical training. It's important to support breastfeeding, it's also important to know when outside intervention is necessary for the health of the baby and some need a little help in the first few days or weeks.

Regarding always seeing the natural way as the best, that is the narrative pushed by hypnobirthing and natural birth advocates. You are told that your body knows best. They forget that nature doesn't need every mother and baby to survive childbirth, just most.

The best approach would be a blend of the two where you could use hypnobirthing in a safe environment (hospital, next to a delivery suite, theatre and NICU just in case it was needed) for straightforward labours with no complications, and use the interventations when they are required - i.e. having an elective section for a footling breech birth or having an induction if there is a higher risk of stillbirth due to gestation over 42 weeks.

I don't really understand it going for a "natural" birth at all costs. I did hypnobirthing and ended up with a c-section, I'm happy to go with the more natural way where it is safe but not as the expense of risking the baby or myself. I'd much rather have a c-section if there was a risk to the baby than push for a natural birth and risk losing them.

I saw a post on here from a poster who refused to give up breastfeeding and her 6 MONTH old baby weighed 9lbs!!!!!!!! Medical staff were begging her to give formula but she was adamant & posters on here egged her on!!!!!!!!

@Glassofshloer

I saw a post on here from a poster who refused to give up breastfeeding and her 6 MONTH old baby weighed 9lbs!!!!!!!! Medical staff were begging her to give formula but she was adamant & posters on here egged her on!!!!!!!!

She wouldn't even consider mixed feeding? At six months baby will be starting on solids anyway.

At six months I wouldn’t bother introducing formula I don’t think. They’re eating then anyway

@Glassofshloer

I saw a post on here from a poster who refused to give up breastfeeding and her 6 MONTH old baby weighed 9lbs!!!!!!!! Medical staff were begging her to give formula but she was adamant & posters on here egged her on!!!!!!!!

Unless the baby was v prem and so very small, surely that should be triggering a safeguarding concern if she was under nourished? Although another little girls murderers in court this week due to lack of effective SS action so....

@Frazzledmummy123

I am glad to see the most recent update and things are ok. OP, is the baby ok? Did he/she weigh in heavy?

The baby wasn't unusually heavy, around 9lbs, but is clearly well cooked, looks like a 4 week old.

The baby now has an infection and needs lumbar punctures which the mum seems to be turning into a joke and enjoying the time to herself while the baby is getting the LP. It's all horrible, honestly. She's really showing her true colours.

It's possible she's deflecting and trying to laugh it off to hide how upset and guilty she feels?

@SleepingStandingUp

It's possible she's deflecting and trying to laugh it off to hide how upset and guilty she feels?

Nope. Haven't sensed a whiff of guilt. She's really proud of herself that everything was her choice not the medics'.

I really think some people should have to pass a test before procreating. Poor child.

@OliviaBean

I really think some people should have to pass a test before procreating. Poor child.

I wouldn't be here if that were the case, and we all know what a devastating loss to the world that would be.

Nope. Haven't sensed a whiff of guilt. She's really proud of herself that everything was her choice not the medics.

At what point in motherhood do you think she'll twig that it's not about her?

@Glassofshloer

I saw a post on here from a poster who refused to give up breastfeeding and her 6 MONTH old baby weighed 9lbs!!!!!!!! Medical staff were begging her to give formula but she was adamant & posters on here egged her on!!!!!!!!

Well to be devils advocate formula wouldn’t necessarily solve whatever issues the baby had, oz for oz breast milk and regular formula are like for like.

Was the baby v prem and potentially iugr? Had an underlying genetic disorder, there are some really rare micro deletions that significantly stunt growth.
I don’t buy this story, if the baby had that significant faltering growth an ng tube would be fitted to supplement breastfeeds. So whether the mum topped up with regular formula or breast milk as they are comparable calorie wise, formula would automatically equal weight gain. Had an allergy been ruled out? A lot of the time HCPs all too readily recommend formula if breastfeeding isn’t quite working out yet in the case of severe cmpa that would make things worse.

If baby was otherwise healthy and a normal gestation and birth weight that’s a huge failing of HCPs not the mother, a breastfeeding assessment needed to be carried out here before growth faltered to this extent, formula isn’t the magic fix all. It’s amazing in certain circumstances, saves lives and I’m all for it but it’s lazy for HCPs to just recommend it rather than provide other feeding support.

How do you know the infection was down to gestation OP? X

44 weeks?!! My son was breech and I was offered an elective c-section and and ECV but I think she's too late for the ECV, it's dangerous for her to give birth vaginally as the bum will come out first but the uterus will think that was the baby's head so will contract straight back and the baby's head will still be inside and risks being poorly. It's really dangerous x

Thanks for the update OP, I am not surprised there has been a complication, and sadly I am also not surprised at her attitude about it. Absolutely unreal.

*The baby now has an infection and needs lumbar punctures which the mum seems to be turning into a joke and enjoying the time to herself while the baby is getting the LP. It's all horrible, honestly. She's really showing her true colours.

Haven't sensed a whiff of guilt. She's really proud of herself that everything was her choice not the medics'.*

Your friend is disgusting OP. A self centred, self indulgent bint. I'd be rethinking my friendship with her.