Page 14 | To worry that I might lose my British citizenship one day because of the new law going through parliament?

flashbac · 2021-12-11T14:03:51+00:00

I was born here and so was one parent. There is a Bill that has just been passed, while we were all distracted with shenanigans with parties and what not, that will allow citizenship to be revoked without notice. I know the power to remove citizenship already exists but the without notice bit is quite scary. I assume that means someone could happily go about their business until they need to show right to be in the UK e.g new job or new rental and then poof, they can't access things and possibly get detained and then deported when they enquire about it and it's probably too late to contest it through the courts. I know the responses will indicate how so many don't care, "don't do anything naughty then and they won't put you in the naughty bin ready to be turfed off to another land" but remember the right to protest, to give an example of how easy it will be to get on the wrong side of the authorities, will also be outlawed soon so anyone could be arrested, if the circumstances meant a person was driven to it, e.g you do a sit down protest outside a hospital because they covered up malpractice or, it's decided that a huge Amazon warehouse is built in the field behind your garden and you wanted to protest with your neighbours. Lots of people will think this only affects 'foriners' so probably won't care. I think it's awful.

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:15

British people who have British born grandparents would not have their citizenship removed though. This is the main issue.
This disproportionately affects people from ethnic minorities.

FanGirlX · 12/12/2021 16:19

@Redheadedbookworm

I have wondered how this might affect me.

Both my daughter and I are Australian born , Australia citizens but have lived in the UK on British passports since 2010.

I met her British dad when he was backpacking through Australia. We weren’t married when we had her. She qualified for the passport because of his British citizenship.

I was able to apply for a British passport as my mother was Scottish born and though she had moved to Australia as a child in the 70s, she and my grandma were still British citizens.

Could put British passports ever be revoked under this new bill?

I'm a British citizen who took up Australian citizenship while living there, so like you, I'm a dual national. Although I live in the U.K. again now, I have kept my Aussie citizenship in case I need it in the future or DD wants to claim Aussie citizenship in the future.

It was made very clear to me, by the Australian government, that should I commit a serious a crime, my Australian citizenship could be revoked.

There are several examples of British citizens who naturalised as Aussies, being deported upon release from prison. We're talking murderers and paedophiles though, not shoplifters.

Whammyyammy · 12/12/2021 16:22

@Rummikub

British people who have British born grandparents would not have their citizenship removed though. This is the main issue. This disproportionately affects people from ethnic minorities.

No, it affects people that commit acts of terrorism or organised crime. Nothing to do with ethnicity.

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:24

So someone who has brutish parents/ grand parents would have their citizenship removed if they committed an act of terrorism?

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:24

‘British’

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:25

2 people
Same criminal act
Different consequences dependent on heritage.

Whammyyammy · 12/12/2021 16:25

@Rummikub

So someone who has brutish parents/ grand parents would have their citizenship removed if they committed an act of terrorism?

And rightly so

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:26

But this isn’t what would happen
As that person wouldn’t have a link to another country.

Whammyyammy · 12/12/2021 16:31

@Rummikub

But this isn’t what would happen As that person wouldn’t have a link to another country.

I get what your saying, but if someone commits an act of terrorism, and they have another citizenship, then its easy to get rid, which is good, as peoplecwont be killed by their terrorist actions. But if they have single British citizenship, then expensive terms in prison is required. Keeps people safe and cheaper.

The easiest solution, and i know this may sound batshit off the wall crazy, but it would be to not involve ones self in terrorist activities 🤷‍♂️

Original poster

flashbac · 12/12/2021 16:34

@Whammyyammy

I voted yabu, I have no problem with the bill, stripping people of British citizen for the crimes from the list below is a no brainer, don't commit these and you'll be fine;

national security including espionage and acts of terrorism
unacceptable behaviour such as the ‘glorification’ of terrorism
war crimes
and serious and organised crime

Can you define terrorism? Environmental protestors are now being classed as terrorists. A groomed and trafficked girl has been classed as a terrorist. The biggest threat at the moment is from WHITE far right extremists. But they can't be deported. That's the point. I should have the same rights not have my citizenship dangled in front of me like I'm some alien.

OP posts:

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:36

Im objecting to the two tier system. I was born here, my parents were not. This difference in not being accepted as top tier British is upsetting. Im British, my rights should be the same as other British citizens who go back generations.

And goal posts change. Extinction rebellion labelled a terrorist group. Mumsnet a hate group.

Graphista · 12/12/2021 16:48

@BusBusBus I agree and that's what I find esp terrifying is that people aren't seeing the bigger picture!

@onlychildhamster I wasn't saying this is the same as the holocaust I can't speak for other posters who referenced the holocaust but I think they mean the same as me - that we may not be there yet but it's certainly 2 of the steps towards such horrific political bigotry!

People need to look at how the holocaust became POSSIBLE as well as other genocides before and since - some of which WERE British perpetrated.

We are not immune from such thoughts and behaviour as a country

@boogiewithasuitcase the police and crime etc bill CHANGES what is classed as a serious crime in a similarly woolly and hard to define way. It also gives the Home Secretary huge powers of autonomy

Do those saying that I and others who are similarly very concerned about these changes REALLY want to live in a uk where someone like Priti Patel has the sole and final say on whether :

A person is a criminal
A person should be deported possibly to a country they've never even VISITED

???

@Starcup it's the "same old argument" because it is the same old reasons! Prejudice!

This reason has not only NOT gone away since the referendum was announced and farage and similar gained more exposure peoples previously hidden racist and xenophobic bullshit has become considered more acceptable

It's not!

AGAIN referencing the BUILD UP to the holocaust being possible is what I said and meant I have not said we are mid holocaust now! Do not misrepresent what I and others have said on this!

It's insulting, misleading and dishonest!

You're the one being disrespectful by ignoring HOW the holocaust and similar atrocities were made possible. It's actually quite shocking that you clearly have an interest in the events yet have failed to educate yourself as to the causes and events which led to the worst actions enacted by an elected govt in a developed modern country.

The German people are not culturally or politically hugely different to the uk. I lived there for several years on 3 occasions before and shortly after reunification. They do not shy away from their history indeed they are very open about it within the country and as part of their education system the intent being that it never happen again in that country. There are still problems with racism, right wing extremists etc AS THERE ARE IN THIS COUNTRY but as a whole they are very wary of even slightly going down that road again.

@RandomLondoner except this govt HAS made people stateless they don't care about international laws

@Starcup and others - remind you of anyone that's perpetrated genocide?! It should

Having gone to auschwitz doesn't negate your wilful ignorance/denial on this

@PAFMO I agree re holocaust and Covid measures but on THIS comparison I disagree. This is directly about disenfranchising and deporting people considered "unworthy" by the state it's a very direct comparison

This is NOT "everything" this is legislative change of exactly the type used by genocidal dictators!

@Meadowbreeze well said

he is speaking of the danger of ignoring things because they don't directly affect you which is what some of us are emphasising.

Exactly!

@ldontWanna very well said

@sashh not just Ricky Tomlinson though people will know him but many others convicted of terrorist crimes due to connections to the miners strike and cnd and other anti Tory activism at that time are still fighting to get unjust politically motivated convictions overturned

I'm also disabled with a disabled dd and I agree we have been seeing for some years the hatred towards us by the tories

He is making the point that you have to defend the rights of other people, including groups you don't agree with, if you want to protect those rights for yourself

Excellently put!

It always always starts small. Neither of these bills are small.

And in conjunction with each other are very disturbing!

Any of you attend the Sarah everard vigils? If these bills had been passed before that if you are a less than 4th gen Brit you could have been deported as a result.

One of these bills was very clearly sped up in response to the criticism of how the police and govt reacted at that time! And some clauses were changed at this time too.

Basically the police crime and sentencing bill would mean ANYONE attending those vigils could have been arrested and possibly convicted under terrorism based laws

So what’s the point in stressing about it?

Because it's unjust
Because it's a prejudicial change in laws
Because it DOES affect many uk citizens
Because further "minor" changes to such laws could well mean those of us not inc YET may be in the future
Because one of these bills gives ONE person in govt (and not even the PM) far too much power in deciding who is a terrorist and who is a British citizen
Because it feeds the right wing extremists cause
Because it stifles political discourse

Because it simply ISN'T RIGHT or fair or a decent way to treat ANYONE!

"I'm all right jack" is the most boring and pathetic response

Being of Irish descent yourself I wonder if you actually have knowledge of how the uk govt behaved in Northern Ireland? So much wasn't reported in uk news of entrapment, false accusations, even executions!

What would your Irish relatives think of your views I wonder. I know mine would be horrified if I held them

Though tbh being of Irish descent you don't have anywhere near as much ti worry about as someone of Iranian or Russian or Chinese descent do you?

Ireland is a pretty decent English speaking country. You would be able to live there fairly easily if they accept you as a citizen and they have a welfare state etc

Politically it's a democracy with reasonable laws and allows its citizens to voice their opinions

I'm not saying it's perfect it has its issues but it's hardly a war torn dictatorship which is where many of those affected by these legal changes could well be sent!

They have to have something in place for the purpose of national security. If that means revoking the citizenships of those that commit serious crimes, in order to make us all safer then I support that.

If you genuinely believe this is WHY they're bringing in these changes you're far more naive than I thought! "National security" is always the excuse for poor treatment of citizens!

Fear is used to persuade us that such laws are right and acceptable - they are not!

To enable the government to get rid of those commuting the most atrocious crimes….

Wow! You do realise that in this comment you are CLAIMING that those committing the most atrocious crimes are immigrants don't you? Where is your evidence for this?!

@Redheadedbookworm I believe yes and without notifying you under this bill if passed

Billandben444 · 12/12/2021 16:50

If you have dual nationality then you have another country to be deported to if guilty of terrorist acts. If you don't then you're dealt with here. No notice needs to be given as presumably you didn't give us warning of your crime. It won't matter what colour you are but if we can dump you somewhere far far away then why shouldn't we?

LaChatte · 12/12/2021 16:52

Meanwhile I have spent most of my life in France, 20yo DS holds a full British passport despite being born and raised in France (he's only ever been to the UK a handful of times), he actually had to ask for French citizenship.

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:54

@Billandben444

If you have dual nationality then you have another country to be deported to if guilty of terrorist acts. If you don't then you're dealt with here. No notice needs to be given as presumably you didn't give us warning of your crime. It won't matter what colour you are but if we can dump you somewhere far far away then why shouldn't we?

Wonder if Australia should sending back their British linked criminals.

Rummikub · 12/12/2021 16:55

Because it creates a two tier system and that is wrong.

Graphista · 12/12/2021 16:55

Re "it'll keep us safer"

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Benjamin Franklin

LostForIdeas · 12/12/2021 16:59

No notice needs to be given as presumably you didn't give us warning of your crime.

@Billandben444, have you heard about miscarriage of justice?
Or judgemnets revoked on appeal?
You know all the system we have in place to ensure that when someone is judged, we know for sure this is the case and we are not sending someone to prison etc.. for no reason?

If you don't tell someone they have committed a crime and they have been judged and found guilty, how can they defend themselves? How can they appeal?

What you describe as normal because the person didn't give a warning for their crime is what totalitarian states do. They put people in prison (or on that case send them away) wo any fair trial/justice. Do you REALLY want to live in such totalitarian country??

Whammyyammy · 12/12/2021 17:00

@flashbac any form of terrorists should not be tolerated.
And if someone who didn't originally have British citizenship applied and was then granted it is involved on terrorism or organised crime, then that citizenship should be revoked, and rightly so.

And sadly no, far right extremists, terroriists or organised crime members that only have UK citizenship cannot have their citizenship revoked, as they only have one, i would assume they would be punished with imprisonment in uk jails.

And you do have the same rights, just don't get involved with terror or organised crime, which is pretty easy to avoid doing to be honest.

Newpandrawer · 12/12/2021 17:01

@Billandben444

If you have dual nationality then you have another country to be deported to if guilty of terrorist acts. If you don't then you're dealt with here. No notice needs to be given as presumably you didn't give us warning of your crime. It won't matter what colour you are but if we can dump you somewhere far far away then why shouldn't we?

Why should the rest of the world take on Britain's criminals?

(Mind you it will be just about the only sector where our exports are growing )

LostForIdeas · 12/12/2021 17:03

Also once again, it's not JUT about people who have two citizenships.

It's about people who have the POTENTIAL for another citizenship. To a country where they wont speak the language, might well have never visitted, don't know anything about. A country where they might well be put in danger for their life (Eg being gay in Syria etc...)

A lot of those people will not be sent 'back home' to a country where thye know people, have a network/family etc... They will be sent to a totally foreign to them country.

Viviennemary · 12/12/2021 17:05

Blowing people up and plotting terrorist acts to murder and maim innocent people is not fair and just either. I for one am glad this stand is being taken.

Storminamu · 12/12/2021 17:06

People who have the right to live in the UK but don't have citizenship are having their right to live here removed over tiny little reasons. There was one person, she was something like an NHS doctor, whose accountant made a fairly small error in the tax return, and then applied to amend the mistake. Which is something that happens all the time. That was the reason given for her no longer being allowed to work or rent a house in the UK.

LostForIdeas · 12/12/2021 17:06

Fwiw it's worth noting that the HO already is refusing to renew passprts.

There has been many children who had been given the british ctizenship, got a british passport all that to see their renewal been refused 'because we made a mistake at tha`t time and please could you prove again that the child is actually entitloed to be british' 18 years donw the line.... (aka at a time when you will be likely to NOT have all the documentation becauyse 1- the child has had his passport and 2- its a long time ago).

So what will be the consequence of that when both 'systems' are put into place?

And then you wonder why people are scred

Starcup · 12/12/2021 17:07

[quote Graphista]@BusBusBus I agree and that's what I find esp terrifying is that people aren't seeing the bigger picture!

@onlychildhamster I wasn't saying this is the same as the holocaust I can't speak for other posters who referenced the holocaust but I think they mean the same as me - that we may not be there yet but it's certainly 2 of the steps towards such horrific political bigotry!

People need to look at how the holocaust became POSSIBLE as well as other genocides before and since - some of which WERE British perpetrated.

We are not immune from such thoughts and behaviour as a country

@boogiewithasuitcase the police and crime etc bill CHANGES what is classed as a serious crime in a similarly woolly and hard to define way. It also gives the Home Secretary huge powers of autonomy

Do those saying that I and others who are similarly very concerned about these changes REALLY want to live in a uk where someone like Priti Patel has the sole and final say on whether :

A person is a criminal
A person should be deported possibly to a country they've never even VISITED

???

@Starcup it's the "same old argument" because it is the same old reasons! Prejudice!

This reason has not only NOT gone away since the referendum was announced and farage and similar gained more exposure peoples previously hidden racist and xenophobic bullshit has become considered more acceptable

It's not!

AGAIN referencing the BUILD UP to the holocaust being possible is what I said and meant I have not said we are mid holocaust now! Do not misrepresent what I and others have said on this!

It's insulting, misleading and dishonest!

You're the one being disrespectful by ignoring HOW the holocaust and similar atrocities were made possible. It's actually quite shocking that you clearly have an interest in the events yet have failed to educate yourself as to the causes and events which led to the worst actions enacted by an elected govt in a developed modern country.

The German people are not culturally or politically hugely different to the uk. I lived there for several years on 3 occasions before and shortly after reunification. They do not shy away from their history indeed they are very open about it within the country and as part of their education system the intent being that it never happen again in that country. There are still problems with racism, right wing extremists etc AS THERE ARE IN THIS COUNTRY but as a whole they are very wary of even slightly going down that road again.

@RandomLondoner except this govt HAS made people stateless they don't care about international laws

@Starcup and others - remind you of anyone that's perpetrated genocide?! It should

Having gone to auschwitz doesn't negate your wilful ignorance/denial on this

@PAFMO I agree re holocaust and Covid measures but on THIS comparison I disagree. This is directly about disenfranchising and deporting people considered "unworthy" by the state it's a very direct comparison

This is NOT "everything" this is legislative change of exactly the type used by genocidal dictators!

@Meadowbreeze well said

he is speaking of the danger of ignoring things because they don't directly affect you which is what some of us are emphasising.

Exactly!

@ldontWanna very well said

@sashh not just Ricky Tomlinson though people will know him but many others convicted of terrorist crimes due to connections to the miners strike and cnd and other anti Tory activism at that time are still fighting to get unjust politically motivated convictions overturned