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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be worried my sister is doing the Alpha course?

510 replies

Southtrainer · 11/12/2021 11:30

Just for a bit of context. My family is and always has been agnostic and left wing. My sister (early thirties) recently met a new partner who comes from a very religious evangelical Christian family. Their relationship surprised us all thinking there was be such a gulf that they wouldn’t stay together long but recently my brother told me my sister is doing the Alpha course and he was concerned she might have some pressure on her to convert to their religion. I’d this right? I’ve never had any experience of this course or religion. I’m worried. Thanks for any info or experiences x

OP posts:
Againstmachine · 21/12/2021 19:40

The Bible isn't a clear read it meanders from one thing to another.

And from the OT to The NT god changed from a lunatic fascist control freak to being nice. They would be too much for me to take but Christians accept that.

All religious books including the Koran are books of man not gods

amoosee · 21/12/2021 20:23

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* - What are the consequences of someone being in a same-sex relationship?*

www.verywellhealth.com/why-do-gay-men-have-an-increased-risk-of-hiv-3132782

medium.com/@neuropsychology/gay-promiscuity-statistics-partners-45fc370c0ca5

www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/substance-abuse.htm

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01506/full

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/18/married-lesbian-couples-divorce-gay-men-office-national-statistrics-data/[/quote]
Did you read the actual articles you posted? In full? Or just the headline?

The first one states that one part of the reason for increased HIV transmission is anal sex, which plenty of same-sex couples (in particular female couples) don't have and plenty of heterosexual couples do. Also, that "Poverty, racism, high rates of unemployment, distrust in government, and a lack of access to health care all contribute to the high rates of HIV in people of color. Add to that the risk factors impacting MSM in general and it becomes clear why this group is disproportionately affected."

The second concluded that:
"It’s likely that the promiscuity stereotype emerges from the minority of gay men who have a significant amount of sex. It’s probable that highly sexually active men are more prone to boast, whereas more reserved gay men have less interest in telling the world about their sex life. In my opinion, the majority of gay men are not ‘promiscuous’, but at the extreme end they are and have much more accessibility to sex due to the sex drive of two men (and the absence of women) – but that’s entirely subjective. It’s likely that more reserved gay men feel more comfortable to come out of the closet nowadays, and their answers are being captured in research.

Perhaps these statistics surprised you, changed your beliefs or simply affirmed what you were already thinking. Just remember, any time you see a study on sexual behavior make sure to check that it relied upon a representative sample before you draw any conclusions."

It also only mentions men, not gay and bisexual women.

The third says that "Alcohol and drug use among some gay and bisexual men can be a reaction to homophobia, discrimination, or violence they experienced due to their sexual orientation and can contribute to other mental health and physical problems. It can disrupt relationships, employment, and threaten financial stability."
Or did you really think that substance abuse comes as a direct result of being in a loving, consenting same sex relationship?

The fourth notes that the stress of being part of a minority group, the homophobia they experience when talking about their abuse or reporting it to the police and that organisations that help LGB people in abusive relationships are relatively new.

The last notes that same-sex marriage has only been legal for a relatively short time and the number of divorced same-sex couples is going to grow as the number of married same-sex couples does. It also doesn't compare it to the rate of divorce in opposite sex-couples so I don't see how that indicates that homosexuality is a bad thing.

Basically, all of these are not necessarily direct consequences of being in a same-sex relationship. You have to take into effect social factors. The fact that gay people are often shunned and discriminated against by society and their own families. The fact that until recently a large proportion of gay and bisexual people had to keep their relationships a secret, and still often do. The fact that in the past there were very few resources for LGB people suffering from things like domestic violence, substance abuse, STDs and that not only was there not adequate sex education but teachers were banned from "promoting" homosexuality in schools. The fact that people like you tell them that they have to spend their whole lives celibate, never being in a relationship, never falling in love, and that being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex is akin to adultery or paedophilia.

donquixotedelamancha · 21/12/2021 20:44

And from the OT to The NT god changed from a lunatic fascist control freak to being nice. They would be too much for me to take but Christians accept that.

Well, not quite. Christianity explicitly rejects much of the OT (I'm wildly oversimplifying) otherwise Christians would not eat pork and would set fire to pidgeons when they have a period. Except the fundies roll it out whenever they want to justify homophobia or 'disprove' evolution.

Againstmachine · 21/12/2021 21:14

Well, not quite. Christianity explicitly rejects much of the OT

So the OT is bollocks then, if that is so is the NT glad we clear that up, you can't chose that the NT god is nicer

Rabblemum · 21/12/2021 21:21

Jesus was all about sharing, he was a pretty radical lefty really. I ho to the local church for the lovely people and lively debates, they run an Alpha course. Maybe she'll convert, maybe not but she' s not joining a cult.

paws17 · 21/12/2021 22:23

@donquixotedelamancha

Christians, unlike Muslims, never believed that God dictated every word of the Bible. This idea is the main way fundamentalism strays from historic Christianity.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "historic Christianity" and "fundamentalism" - assuming by that you mean "Taking the bible at face value" (but not necessarily taking it all "literally") - are different things.

If you're calling me a fundamentalist because I accept what 2 Timothy 3 v.16 has to say about the bible, then I must hold my hand up & say "Guilty as charged" - but I'm not so blind (no pun intended) not to realise that Jesus was using hyperbole when he told us to "gouge out our eye if it caused us to sin" (Matthew 18 v.9), for example.

I will bet good money that you believe in salvation by faith alone, despite the fact that it's specifically contradicted by the Bible (James 2, though I think every word of the gospels is against it).

For me, there is no contradiction between the Gospels (or Pauline letters) and James 2 on this matter. "Faith" and "Works" are 2 necessary but distinct sides of the same coin. The coin is "Salvation" - Putting out faith in Jesus is how we each receive salvation. "Good works" is the fruit that should naturally result from us having put our faith in Christ. If it doesn't, there's plainly something wrong with or, at least, questionable about the validity & quality of our faith.

All James is saying is essentially what many non-Christians like to say to Christians when they see them doing something wrong or not doing something good when an opportunity presents itself:

"Call yourself a Christian when you've just said/done XXXX!"

Check out Galatians 2 vs 15 -16 and Romans 3 v. 20. Faith in Christ produces good works - not the other way round.

Similarly I would say the biblical evidence for homosexuality being a sin is weak and contradicted by the teachings of the gospel.

www.catholichawaii.org/media/224239/bible_verses_about_homosexuality.pdf

I'd be genuinely interested to know & read the extracts from the Gospels which you believe contradict the clear impression given in all the other bible verses in the link, 4 of which are also from the NT.

We read the same book but come to different conclusions, not because of a desire to "gloss over what the bible says" but because of genuinely held beliefs.

I feel sure that God didn't intend for us all to read His word and come to all sorts of different conclusions about what He meant. The existence of so many different Christian denominations acts as a very unfortunate blot on the character of the entire Christian Church and inevitably spoils our joint witness to a watching world, providing them with what they may consider to be a "get out of jail" card on any issue that we appear to be divided or giving out mixed messages on.

paws17 · 21/12/2021 22:57

@amoosee

Yes, I did read all of the articles and chose them specifically because they were fair, unbiased and definitely not written by people who were antagonistic to gay people. You, on the other hand, have still chosen to try to misrepresent them by selectively quoting just the bits which seem to be sympathetic to your own position.

You asked me to provide you with a list of some of the consequences of being in same sex relationships. These articles very openly & honestly reveal what some of those issues are. They didn't say - and I'm not saying - that ALL same-sex relationships will experience these problems - and the problems faced by lesbian couples are clearly not all shared by male same sex couples, and vice versa - but the fair-minded readers of Mumsnet are all capable of reading the articles, if they wish, & making up their own minds.

paws17 · 21/12/2021 23:33

@Againstmachine - And from the OT to The NT god changed from a lunatic fascist control freak to being nice. They would be too much for me to take but Christians accept that.

God didn't change in character from the OT to the NT. What changed was that He provided anyone who wishes to benefit from it with an effective shield from His holy and righteous anger at people's treatment of His commandments and each other. That shield is the oft quoted but misunderstood blood of Christ which was spilt at His crucifixion.

Christians - as you indicate - do accept that, gratefully and without any sense of deserving it. When a Christian talks about "trusting in Christ" they are actually saying that they have decided to accept God's free offer of protection from the eventual reckoning which God, I'm afraid to report, has promised.

For those who are taking this discussion seriously, you may find Exodus 12 a disturbing but enlightening read - There you will see a prophetic OT reference to this very NT concept.

amoosee · 22/12/2021 00:18

[quote paws17]@amoosee

Yes, I did read all of the articles and chose them specifically because they were fair, unbiased and definitely not written by people who were antagonistic to gay people. You, on the other hand, have still chosen to try to misrepresent them by selectively quoting just the bits which seem to be sympathetic to your own position.

You asked me to provide you with a list of some of the consequences of being in same sex relationships. These articles very openly & honestly reveal what some of those issues are. They didn't say - and I'm not saying - that ALL same-sex relationships will experience these problems - and the problems faced by lesbian couples are clearly not all shared by male same sex couples, and vice versa - but the fair-minded readers of Mumsnet are all capable of reading the articles, if they wish, & making up their own minds.[/quote]
Except as I said most of those "consequences" are a. not exclusive to same-sex couples and b. are influenced by the homophobia people face. I mean why do you think gay people have higher than average rates of substance abuse? Really?

You are part of the problem.

Hvergelmir · 23/12/2021 14:23

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* - What are the consequences of someone being in a same-sex relationship?*

www.verywellhealth.com/why-do-gay-men-have-an-increased-risk-of-hiv-3132782

medium.com/@neuropsychology/gay-promiscuity-statistics-partners-45fc370c0ca5

www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/substance-abuse.htm

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01506/full

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/18/married-lesbian-couples-divorce-gay-men-office-national-statistrics-data/[/quote]
So you're not homophobic but you're spreading the stereotype of gay people being promiscuous, STD-ridden drug addicts. Pull the other one.

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