To be worried my sister is doing the Alpha course?

[Southtrainer]

Just for a bit of context. My family is and always has been agnostic and left wing. My sister (early thirties) recently met a new partner who comes from a very religious evangelical Christian family. Their relationship surprised us all thinking there was be such a gulf that they wouldn’t stay together long but recently my brother told me my sister is doing the Alpha course and he was concerned she might have some pressure on her to convert to their religion. I’d this right? I’ve never had any experience of this course or religion. I’m worried. Thanks for any info or experiences x

The Alpha course is a very open way to explore Christianity and discuss your own thoughts and feelings. You are put under no pressure whatsoever. It's a wonderful, welcoming, lovely environment and experience. Just because your family holds certain beliefs doesn't mean that your sister isn't allowed to explore Christianity. It will be a wonderful experience for her.

(I am a Christian, full disclosure, and have done the Alpha course twice. I personally don't believe in evolution either But the Alpha course isn't to blame for that!)

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* @allyouvegottenminuteslynn* @allAgainstmachine

Yes how dare people call you, who just compared homosexuality to paedophilia

To be fair to myself, if you re-read my earlier comments, you'll see that I wasn't comparing homosexuality to paedophilia. I listed a few issues that, like homosexuality, are not mentioned in the bible by Jesus in response to an argument put forward by some that if Jesus didn't mention it, it must mean that He didn't have a view on the matter.

Of course there are lots of other issues that Jesus did mention in his ministry which those of us who do believe need to be equally challenged by. (Unkindness, hatred, jealousy, divorce, gluttony, lies, stealing, adultery, cheating, ignoring the plight of the poor & widows, etc, etc.)[/quote]
Oh come on, it's very clean that you were comparing them don't act like we're idiots.

and now you're quite clearly comparing it with things like hatred and adultery.

The difference being those things are harmful. Homosexuality is not. Telling gay people especially children and teenagers, that because of who they are they can never have a relationship is harmful, however.

I'm sorry, I just need to clarify - when you say you don't believe in evolution - you are aware that evolution is not an idea to believe/not believe in? It's like saying you don't believe in the earth, or you don't believe in water. We know that evolution is how life on earth came to be. There is really no doubt at all about it.

Obviously you are entitled to your belief, but I just can't quite understand it. If you said you believed in aliens, then okay. That's something for which there is some evidence, however flimsy it may be, and certainly can be a matter of belief. But you're saying you don't believe in a material fact. Or are you just trying to wind people up?

I personally don't believe in evolution either grin But the Alpha course isn't to blame for that!

As this thread is already derailed I'll bite here:

I don't understand 'Christians' who don't 'believe' in evolution. It's completely outside mainstream Christianity to reject Science. Many of these people are Anglican or similar but holding views which are heretical to the mainstream protestant communions.

Why has that particular bit of Science denial got such a hold but these people still (usually) accept that electricity is not magic and will be treated by modern medicine?

If they want to accept the old testament (which Christians do not) why don't they go into the wilderness and burn two pigeons when on their period?

@allyouvegottenminuteslynn

You believe, I assume, that if someone gay has same sex sexual partners, they go to hell? Even if they are great people who are kind and loving, but just happen to be gay and have a same sex sexual partner?

I wouldn't dare to suggest such a thing but I would recommend that anyone who is considering the possibility of becoming a Christian is ready & willing for the Holy Spirit (I know, another unsubstantiated entity) to challenge their conscience on ALL of their current behaviours & attitudes in the light of what God desires for their lives going forward.

It's baffling to me if you believe that (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're offended when people call you homophobic.

In honesty, I'd need to be provided with a universally agreed definition of the word in order to decide if I'm offended by being called it. I'd be surprised if sharing some of the contents of an ancient book which, apparently, very few people recognise as having any relevance or validity in shaping their life paths would come under such a definition.

Do I hate gay people? No. Do I discriminate against gay people? No. Am I fearful of gay people? No. Do I want gay people to be a part of God's family? Absolutely, YES!

@paws17

Your tone comes across as ever so disingenuous because however many ways you essentially say 'I'm not judging', your posts are dripping in both judgement and oddly a hesitation when it comes to committing to your beliefs.

I would bet my house that you believe gay people who have gay sex will go to hell unless they repent. I don't get why people won't own the fact they believe that, if they believe in god so strongly and are so sure that he believes sex with a same sex partner is wrong and a sin.

I'm left wing and Christian. But I also understand your concerns. I think for me if it was a C fo E or mainstream Church running it I'd not worry so much. I have had a few friends get caught up in very divisive & right wing groups, but they aren't likely the type to run Alpha and more likely to do their own thing fundamentally b/c many don't believe C of E and anything done by/with it, is Christian enough!

[quote paws17]@allyouvegottenminuteslynn

You believe, I assume, that if someone gay has same sex sexual partners, they go to hell? Even if they are great people who are kind and loving, but just happen to be gay and have a same sex sexual partner?

I wouldn't dare to suggest such a thing but I would recommend that anyone who is considering the possibility of becoming a Christian is ready & willing for the Holy Spirit (I know, another unsubstantiated entity) to challenge their conscience on ALL of their current behaviours & attitudes in the light of what God desires for their lives going forward.

It's baffling to me if you believe that (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're offended when people call you homophobic.

In honesty, I'd need to be provided with a universally agreed definition of the word in order to decide if I'm offended by being called it. I'd be surprised if sharing some of the contents of an ancient book which, apparently, very few people recognise as having any relevance or validity in shaping their life paths would come under such a definition.

Do I hate gay people? No. Do I discriminate against gay people? No. Am I fearful of gay people? No. Do I want gay people to be a part of God's family? Absolutely, YES![/quote]
Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).[1][2][3] It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to religious beliefs.[4][5]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

I'd say that describes you.

Do I want gay people to be a part of God's family? Absolutely, YES!

So long as they remain single and celibate.

@amoosee - Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to religious beliefs.

Since you've turned to Wikipedia for your definition, perhaps you'll like this related word definition that I've just put together:

Christophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward Christianity or people who are identified or perceived as being Christians or "religious". It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to atheist beliefs.

Looks like we might both equally be guilty as charged

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* - Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to religious beliefs.*

Since you've turned to Wikipedia for your definition, perhaps you'll like this related word definition that I've just put together:

Christophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward Christianity or people who are identified or perceived as being Christians or "religious". It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to atheist beliefs.

Looks like we might both equally be guilty as charged [/quote]
I'm not sure how I fit the definition o
that you just cometely made up. It is homophobia I have a problem with, not Christianity. As demonstrated by this thread there are plenty of non-homophobic Christians.

If I was to compare Christianity to paedophilia or adultery you might have a point.

@paws17

I hope you don't have any gay children, for their sake.

I don't but if I had, I hope I would still have been able to love them into the Kingdom of God, for their sake.

What does that mean, you'd tell them to be celibate and single their whole life? Send them to some homophobic organisation?

Homophobia also includes patronising behaviour or pity.
I have heard people in my moter's bible study group talking about "the gays" saying things like "they can't help it, poor things", my mother has said " all gays are really nice people"- these christians seem to think they are being so liberal.

Do I hate gay people? No. Do I discriminate against gay people? No. Am I fearful of gay people? No. Do I want gay people to be a part of God's family? Absolutely, YES!

Do you accept that gay people are entitled to enter into relationships with other gay people which include sex, @paws17, and that they should not suffer adverse consequences if they do?

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* - Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to religious beliefs.*

Since you've turned to Wikipedia for your definition, perhaps you'll like this related word definition that I've just put together:

Christophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward Christianity or people who are identified or perceived as being Christians or "religious". It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is also related to atheist beliefs.

Looks like we might both equally be guilty as charged [/quote]
The difference being that gay people are real but christ isn’t.

Please separate Christians ie the followers of Jesus Christ from the Old Testament. Just keep them apart in your mind, not reject entirely.
Nothing Jesus said about decrying science.
The creation 6 Day story and Tower of Babel are legends to enable an understanding of philosophical questions.
Not believing science is ridiculous, try working as an engineer and ignoring gravity. Ask a geologist about how old gold or oil bearing rocks are and suggest they can be no older than 4500 years.
Does that work?

@GoodPrincessWenceslas

Do I hate gay people? No. Do I discriminate against gay people? No. Am I fearful of gay people? No. Do I want gay people to be a part of God's family? Absolutely, YES!

Do you accept that gay people are entitled to enter into relationships with other gay people which include sex, @paws17, and that they should not suffer adverse consequences if they do?

@GoodPrincessWenceslas

Do you accept that gay people are entitled to enter into relationships with other gay people which include sex, @paws17, and that they should not suffer adverse consequences if they do?

Although I'm flattered that anyone should want to know what I think about gay people's freedom to have or not have relationships with others, those individual choices are really none of my business. I'm all in favour of everyone plotting the course of their own lives - and then fully accepting the consequences of those choices, of course - but, to answer your question, they shouldn't experience adverse consequences or reaction from me or other fellow earth travellers if they are living out their lives lawfully, as far as the prevailing law of the land is concerned.

Although I have been frequently accused on here of judgementalism, all I have tried to do is point to what the Bible says about some of these matters. Yes, some Christians, in the mistaken belief that they can gloss over what the bible says in order to appear more welcoming & inclusive to outsiders, try to convince gay people that they can become Christians and not then, with the continuous presence, support & encouragement of the Holy Spirit, bring their lives into line with what God's word says going forward. That is a recipe for disaster - and it's dishonesty of the highest order which, one day, those "friends" may have to give their own account to God for.

If a member of your close family was living in a building which caught fire and wasn't aware of the situation, would you say nothing to them, or, perhaps, "Don't worry, stay exactly where you are. The flames will never reach you" or would you do your best to rescue them from what might happen to them if they stay there?

If God is real - If God's word is true - Why is it wrong for Christians to try to rescue people (of ALL persuasions & backgrounds) from God's coming wrath by alerting them to what God's word says about our eventual accountability to Him? Isn't that the very least you would expect of people who are supposed to love others, including their family, neighbours work-colleagues & strangers?

The bible is very clear:

Romans 3 v 23 - "ALL have sinned & fallen short of His (God's) glory" - That means EVERYONE, period, including me.

Romans 6 v 23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Acts 16 v 31 - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

2 Peter 3 v 9b - "God....is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

2 Corinthians 5 v .17 - (To Christians) "This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!"

Ephesians 4 vs 21 - 24 - (To Christians) Since you have heard about Jesus and have learned the truth that comes from him, throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception. Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy."

Philippians 1 v 6 - "And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns."

Philiipians 4 v 7 - (To Christians) "And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

If people don't believe that there is a God - If people don't believe that everyone (myself included) will one day have to appear before Him to give account for our lives, then I can't really say much more on this matter and will leave you all to continue your lives in peace. However, if any of you who aren't Christians yet do harbour a sneaking suspicion that He might exist, can I encourage you to read the New Testament for yourself until you find the answers you may be looking for.

A very Happy Christmas to all our readers.

Although I'm flattered that anyone should want to know what I think about gay people's freedom to have or not have relationships with others, those individual choices are really none of my business. I'm all in favour of everyone plotting the course of their own lives - and then fully accepting the consequences of those choices, of course - but, to answer your question, they shouldn't experience adverse consequences or reaction from me or other fellow earth travellers if they are living out their lives lawfully, as far as the prevailing law of the land is concerned

No adverse consequence or reaction except you telling them they're going to hell for doing something that harms no one.

What are the consequences of someone being in a same-sex relationship?

Although I have been frequently accused on here of judgementalism, all I have tried to do is point to what the Bible says about some of these matters. Yes, some Christians, in the mistaken belief that they can gloss over what the bible says

It must be awful to be accused of being judgemental just because you understand the Bible better than other Christians and thus know exactly what God wants.

@donquixotedelamancha

Although I have been frequently accused on here of judgementalism, all I have tried to do is point to what the Bible says about some of these matters. Yes, some Christians, in the mistaken belief that they can gloss over what the bible says

It must be awful to be accused of being judgemental just because you understand the Bible better than other Christians and thus know exactly what God wants.

Funny how people's Absolutely Objectively Correct interpretation happens to conform with their existing prejudices.

Funny how people's Absolutely Objectively Correct interpretation happens to conform with their existing prejudices.

I think that's Calvinism's main selling point over Christianity proper- being told there is one easy answer but everyone else is too stupid to see it is incredibly attractive.

@donquixotedelamancha

Although I have been frequently accused on here of judgementalism, all I have tried to do is point to what the Bible says about some of these matters. Yes, some Christians, in the mistaken belief that they can gloss over what the bible says

It must be awful to be accused of being judgemental just because you understand the Bible better than other Christians and thus know exactly what God wants.

@donquixotedelamancha - It must be awful to be accused of being judgemental just because you understand the Bible better than other Christians and thus know exactly what God wants.

One minute I'm being accused of being too hesitant about being clear about what the bible says - and the next minute, too assured & arrogant. On balance, hopefully I'm pitching my comments about right, although I appear not to be able to satisfy everyone.

Strangely, no-one identifying themselves as a Christian has countered anything I've put before you all so it would be difficult for anyone to judge whether I do understand the Bible any better than anyone else. In any case, I have not sought to explain or interpret scripture but just put it plainly before you all.

The Bible is actually quite a clear read, for the most part. It's only the prophetic books in the OT & the Book of Revelation in the NT that are hard-going and require interpretative skills which are probably above my pay grade.

The bottom line is that God wants His purposes to be known and to be clear to us all. He hasn't wrapped His essential biblical truths up in double-speak that require special interpretation. Take the 10 commandments - 10 simple laws which are easy for anyone to understand. Not easy to keep - and not universally accepted - but that's another story.

@amoosee - What are the consequences of someone being in a same-sex relationship?

www.verywellhealth.com/why-do-gay-men-have-an-increased-risk-of-hiv-3132782

medium.com/@neuropsychology/gay-promiscuity-statistics-partners-45fc370c0ca5

www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/substance-abuse.htm

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01506/full

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/18/married-lesbian-couples-divorce-gay-men-office-national-statistrics-data/

The Bible is actually quite a clear read, for the most part......The bottom line is that God wants His purposes to be known and to be clear to us all.

Christians, unlike Muslims, never believed that God dictated every word of the Bible. This idea is the main way fundamentalism strays from historic Christianity.

The Bible was written by many people, in many contexts, for many purposes. It's only possible to think it's all literal if you switch off your god-given reason.

For example: I will bet good money that you believe in salvation by faith alone, despite the fact that it's specifically contradicted by the Bible (James 2, though I think every word of the gospels is against it).

Similarly I would say the biblical evidence for homosexuality being a sin is weak and contradicted by the teachings of the gospel.

We read the same book but come to different conclusions, not because of a desire to "gloss over what the bible says" but because of genuinely held beliefs.

A very dear friend of mine who was a lifelong atheist did the Alpha course after being strongly "encouraged" by a girl he was infatuated with at the time. I didn't think anything of it initially but the change in him, not just his beliefs but his whole personality, was so dramatic and happended so quickly it was alarming. The people who were facilitating the course went from being strangers to treating him as "part of the family" overnight. He began spending all his time with them and distancing himself from his actual family and close friends, not because they had done anything wrong but because they wouldn't sign up to the course or go to church/bible study which he persistently badgered them to do. Although it broke my heart I had to distance myself from him because it became impossible to have a conversation with him without him bringing religion into it and getting upset when I (calmly and patiently) explained I respect others beliefs but was not going to be converted. He had also started expressing homophobic views which were extremely out of character. He ended up marrying the girl who originally persuaded him to do the course and they moved away. I ran into his Mum a couple of years back and she told me she worries about him as she believes he is deeply unhappy in the relationship and with his life and that his wife is controlling. At the time he did the Alpha course he was extremely vulnerable, he has a history of significant MH issues and had just suffered a bereavement. I would go so far as to say he was groomed, although I know some on this thread will flame me for that.