To be worried my sister is doing the Alpha course?

[Southtrainer]

Just for a bit of context. My family is and always has been agnostic and left wing. My sister (early thirties) recently met a new partner who comes from a very religious evangelical Christian family. Their relationship surprised us all thinking there was be such a gulf that they wouldn’t stay together long but recently my brother told me my sister is doing the Alpha course and he was concerned she might have some pressure on her to convert to their religion. I’d this right? I’ve never had any experience of this course or religion. I’m worried. Thanks for any info or experiences x

@Againstmachine

There is just as much reason & evidence to accept the fact that there was an historical Jesus as there is for other contemporary figures of that era (Pontius Pilate, Emperor Augustus, King Herod, etc.)

Wow you are grouping in people who clearly existed during this time so you think there is no evidence of Augustus and Herod even though there is things such as coins, records ect.

No - I'm arguing that the very proven existence of those other contemporaries from that period - whose lives actually entwined on occasions with Jesus - is further proof of his existence.

It’s homophobic, but I get that lots of straight people are prepared to overlook that in their search for the meaning of life. Pretty sexist too.

No - I'm arguing that the very proven existence of those other contemporaries from that period - whose lives actually entwined on occasions with Jesus - is further proof of his existence.

Someone historical who existed at same time as jesus is no proof at all he existed, that's total clutching at straws.

@kmblark

Dismissing the bible as entirely the work of "believers" may provide some with a get-out clause for their consciences

What is it on my conscious that I'm trying to get out of exactly?

The Bible teaches that everyone will one day have to give an account of their lives to Jesus Christ. Counting oneself as an atheist or non-believer would certainly seem to absolve most people of any conscience or concern in regard to that possibility - at least until that day arrives, if it ever does, of course...

Of course, it's much easier to argue that He didn't exist than face up to dealing with & responding to his numerous moral, social and relationship challenges to us all

Very odd that you seem to think this is an either/or question. Do you really think all non-believers go through life ignoring moral, social and relationship challenges? It's manifest nonsense.

Counting oneself as an atheist or non-believer would certainly seem to absolve most people of any conscience or concern in regard to that possibility
What about followers of other religions?

@logsonlogsoff

It’s homophobic, but I get that lots of straight people are prepared to overlook that in their search for the meaning of life. Pretty sexist too.

My most devoutly Christian friends are a lesbian couple who met via church, a sort of renegade Catholic congregation that used to meet in different central London churches — they actually had a Catholic priest marry them. I think that he was semi-retired and in transit back from an overseas parish, so felt that there were limits to what his hierarchy would be able to do to him if he was found out. Apparently there were/are other priests who did similar.

I do struggle to understand their investment in a faith that deems their relationship sinful, but I respect their right to feel differently.

@paws17

I have a conscious, thanks, it just differs from yours. I think homophobia is wrong, for example.

@logsonlogsoff

It’s homophobic, but I get that lots of straight people are prepared to overlook that in their search for the meaning of life. Pretty sexist too.

My most devoutly Christian friends are a lesbian couple who met via church, a sort of renegade Catholic congregation that used to meet in different central London churches — they actually had a Catholic priest marry them. I think that he was semi-retired and in transit back from an overseas parish, so felt that there were limits to what his hierarchy would be able to do to him if he was found out. Apparently there were/are other priests who did similar.

I do struggle to understand their investment in a faith that deems their relationship sinful, but I respect their right to feel differently.

@paws17

I have a conscious, thanks, it just differs from yours. I think homophobia is wrong, for example.

@GoodPrincessWenceslas

Of course, it's much easier to argue that He didn't exist than face up to dealing with & responding to his numerous moral, social and relationship challenges to us all

Very odd that you seem to think this is an either/or question. Do you really think all non-believers go through life ignoring moral, social and relationship challenges? It's manifest nonsense.

Exactly this!

As I said upthread, lots of us manage to navigate those challenges without god being a factor.

You seem to equate being christian with working harder at life than atheists. You say atheists take the 'much easier' road.

I would argue that if anything its 'easier' to defer to a higher power instead of taking absolute responsibility for your own path in life and decisions along the way.

Your point about same-sex couples is very interesting. God doesn't say anything in the bible about how they should conduct their marriage relationships. I wonder why that is...

@paws17

Why do you think that is? Maybe the authors didn't think of that? Maybe a healthy relationship, be it same or opposite sex, should not involve one person submitting to the other?

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Wow. It never fails to amaze me how quickly apparently christian folk turn patronising, snarky and sarcastic when challenged about things they state as fact.

I apologise to you & others if you think I'm being sarcastic or arrogant or patronising. That is not my intention. I've got nothing to gain in deliberately upsetting anyone who is actually willing to engage genuinely in these discussions on here. However, it does seem that some people are very wary & immediately critical of anyone who seems to know what they believe and why they believe it. Can I humbly suggest that what some of you see in Christians as an arrogant and patronising attitude could well be what the Bible would call "assurance" - not self-assurance but assurance from God.

I'm certainly not critical of atheists who live their lives responsibly, who show loving concern for others and who express no need for God in their lives - but the world is a very large & varied place, and not all of humankind feels quite as much self-assurance & contentment with their lot as some of you on here clearly do. Talking in analogies about his earthly mission, Jesus said "Healthy people have no need of a doctor, but sick people do." (Luke 5 v 31). If you have no need for a doctor, by all means rejoice.

Good post @paws17.

Having been accused many times on MN of being homophobic and a " fundie'" for taking a Christian traditional view of marriage, I have found the MN debate on Trans issues very interesting as it seems that anyone who claims that women are women and TW are TW are advised of being Transphobic for merely starting this. Even if they clearly state that Trans people have rights and should be protected. Even if they state that they would never treat a Transperson with disrespect. The very fact that they hold an unacceptable view means they are advised of Transphobia. Having a strongly held belief does not and should not mean you hate or are scared of anyone who does not agree.
The traditional Christian teaching as I understand it is that the act of sex was created for procreation and cementing together a family unit for the stability of the children within the unit. I can believe that is God's perfect plan whilst accepting and caring about anyone who thinks and practices something different. His plan is also that we avoid gluttony, don't gossip, forgive and love our enemies, care for the poor and widows, etc etc. There are so many things and none of us even scratch the surface at getting close to being Christlike. Christians should be focussed on all the things they could be improving upon and we are explicitly told not to judge others as that is for God to do.
Maybe those feminists, wrongly accused of being homophobic may get a sense of how it feels to be advised of heating people when you feel no hate at all.

accused of hating ( not advised of heating!)

@vdbfamily I have known a lot of very committed Christians. I can't think of a more judgemental crowd. Glad to be out of there.

I think, getting back to the thread, that what this had clearly shown is that Alpha is a toolkit, and how it is used will be completely different in pretty much every church it is run in, and even within same church it will change depending on who is running it. Same with Christians( and non Christians) Some will be judgemental and some not. If every Christian you ever met is judgemental, then you have been very unfortunate.

@vdbfamily

Having a strongly held belief does not and should not mean you hate or are scared of anyone who does not agree.

Do you hold a strong belief that it is wrong to be gay and wrong to marry someone of the same sex?

Do you believe that gay people can convert to being straight through prayer and worship?

Nobody christian on here ever seems to say an outright yes to either of those questions, which undermines their claim to hold a belief strongly if that makes sense?

@vdbfamily

Having been accused many times on MN of being homophobic and a " fundie'" for taking a Christian traditional view of marriage, I have found the MN debate on Trans issues very interesting as it seems that anyone who claims that women are women and TW are TW are advised of being Transphobic for merely starting this. Even if they clearly state that Trans people have rights and should be protected. Even if they state that they would never treat a Transperson with disrespect. The very fact that they hold an unacceptable view means they are advised of Transphobia. Having a strongly held belief does not and should not mean you hate or are scared of anyone who does not agree. The traditional Christian teaching as I understand it is that the act of sex was created for procreation and cementing together a family unit for the stability of the children within the unit. I can believe that is God's perfect plan whilst accepting and caring about anyone who thinks and practices something different. His plan is also that we avoid gluttony, don't gossip, forgive and love our enemies, care for the poor and widows, etc etc. There are so many things and none of us even scratch the surface at getting close to being Christlike. Christians should be focussed on all the things they could be improving upon and we are explicitly told not to judge others as that is for God to do. Maybe those feminists, wrongly accused of being homophobic may get a sense of how it feels to be advised of heating people when you feel no hate at all.

Except you're not wrongly accused of being homophobic. You think same-sex relationships are lesser. That's homophobic.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats

Counting oneself as an atheist or non-believer would certainly seem to absolve most people of any conscience or concern in regard to that possibility What about followers of other religions?

We each pays our money & takes our choice...You all know all of those arguments about God giving each of us freewill. Waitrose or Sainsburys; Aldi or Lidl - Just be sure to choose (or not choose) the right one.

[quote paws17]@youvegottenminuteslynn

Wow. It never fails to amaze me how quickly apparently christian folk turn patronising, snarky and sarcastic when challenged about things they state as fact.

I apologise to you & others if you think I'm being sarcastic or arrogant or patronising. That is not my intention. I've got nothing to gain in deliberately upsetting anyone who is actually willing to engage genuinely in these discussions on here. However, it does seem that some people are very wary & immediately critical of anyone who seems to know what they believe and why they believe it. Can I humbly suggest that what some of you see in Christians as an arrogant and patronising attitude could well be what the Bible would call "assurance" - not self-assurance but assurance from God.

I'm certainly not critical of atheists who live their lives responsibly, who show loving concern for others and who express no need for God in their lives - but the world is a very large & varied place, and not all of humankind feels quite as much self-assurance & contentment with their lot as some of you on here clearly do. Talking in analogies about his earthly mission, Jesus said "Healthy people have no need of a doctor, but sick people do." (Luke 5 v 31). If you have no need for a doctor, by all means rejoice.[/quote]
With respect, you don’t seem to know very much at all about what you believe, @paws17. You appear to be labouring under the delusion that the Old Testament references to a Messiah are in fact prophetic flash-forwards to Jesus which could only be supernatural, without being aware that those deliberate allusions to the OT in the gospels are precisely retrofitted to OT verses in order to ground early Christianity (which was initially a messianic Jewish sect) in the claim of early Christians that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. Most of Jesus’s teaching were acceptable in terms of contemporary Judaism, and acclaiming him as a/the Messiah was just a particular new strand within Judaism.

Early Christianity began to split from Judaism after Paul began to include gentiles, and took off along its own routes. Judaism now of course neither sees those verses in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT as prophetic nor views Jesus as messiah. Even without considering the different canonical Bibles among different varieties of Christianity, there are entirely different interpretations of the same texts.

The history of early Christianity and of the Bible texts are colossally historically and culturally interesting, but the Bible is in no way the kind of safe manual for belief that it’s turned into by some simplistic Christians. Who should really do a lot more reading and less pontificating.

(There was a really interesting, long-running thread on here years ago which debated the evidence for the historicity of Jesus in detail — I wonder if it’s still around.)

@Corbally - With respect, you don’t seem to know very much at all about what you believe, @paws17. You appear to be labouring under the delusion that the Old Testament references to a Messiah are in fact prophetic flash-forwards to Jesus which could only be supernatural, without being aware that those deliberate allusions to the OT in the gospels are precisely retrofitted to OT verses in order to ground early Christianity

You seem very well-versed in all of the arguments that have been marshalled throughout the ages to try to discredit Jesus as Messiah. I'm particularly struck by the thought that anyone would stage his own public humiliation and execution at the hands of the Romans, just to "retro-fit" what Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 has to say prophetically about how the Messiah will be treated on his arrival on earth.

As for me, I'm more than happy to continue in my deluded but assured state in believing that:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realise what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." (2 Timothy 3 v.16)

You said upthread @paws17 that you didn't mean for your tone to be condescending / snarky. It's something to work on as that's how your tone really does come across in your posts.

Genuinely, if you do want to engage with people about this topic then it's something to work on as it's been the same throughout the thread in your posts.

If you really aren't being disingenuous when you say you don't mean to come across that way, I'm surprised but as I say it's something maybe worth working on.

@youvegottenminuteslynn - Your comments are noted & appreciated. It's no excuse but it is quite difficult defending some themes against a large opposition.