To be worried my sister is doing the Alpha course?

[Southtrainer]

Just for a bit of context. My family is and always has been agnostic and left wing. My sister (early thirties) recently met a new partner who comes from a very religious evangelical Christian family. Their relationship surprised us all thinking there was be such a gulf that they wouldn’t stay together long but recently my brother told me my sister is doing the Alpha course and he was concerned she might have some pressure on her to convert to their religion. I’d this right? I’ve never had any experience of this course or religion. I’m worried. Thanks for any info or experiences x

@Gingerish

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy]]religionn_spirituality/1699996-The-Great-Jesus-debate-Did-he-exist-at-all-and-if-he-did-what-reasons-do-we-have-to-believe-he-was-divine

Oh, thanks, @Gingerish. I had looked, but didn’t find it.

@paws17

I hope you don't have any gay children, for their sake.

The alpha course was specifically written to persuade and cajole and is a pile of 'ignore evidenced and God is love utter tripe. They need bigger congregation s to stay in business. It's one of their strategies.

@allyouvegottenminuteslynn

It so often feels like Cherry picking the bits that are palatable and least likely to offend. As I said upthread, it would almost be refreshing if someone on here said 'yes as a Christian I believe it's wrong to be gay' because we have all met plenty of Christians who feel that way and surely part of them being true to their beliefs is sharing them if they are sure of them?

Thank you for your insight. It does seem sometimes that Christians can do no right in this discussion, and that's probably why so many are reluctant to speak out. We don't want to deeply offend people but how can we fulfil our commission to share the Gospel faithfully if we don't share what God says in His word about key issues like this one? And no-one wants to be described as "homophobic", whatever that means nowadays.

As you & others have hinted, since the bible is absolutely clear and unambiguous, in both Old & New Testaments, about what God thinks about same-sex acts (not inclinations or desires), there's no useful purpose in Christians with a more "liberal" theology saying that it's different in their church or that they don't believe that same-sex acts are wrong. In doing so, they are effectively denying the very God of truth and love that they claim to believe & trust in. In this context, what is someone who is genuinely searching for answers to do? My answer would always be "Go & see for yourself what the bible says about these matters."

Christian allies and apologists for same-sex activity will always come up with the same old arguments to try to get people to ignore or overlook what the bible says, but none of these hold up to serious scrutiny. e.g.

• The suggestion that as we no longer uphold the OT prohibition in Leviticus (Chapters 11 & 19) of the eating of shellfish or wearing mixed fibres, we should tell people that God has somehow changed His mind on the matter of same-sex acts, too. In fact, the shellfish & mixed fibre laws were ceremonial signs of outward distinctiveness for God's chosen people in the OT & which are no longer re-emphasised as applicable in the NT. (Acts 10 vs 9 - 16). Same sex acts ARE specifically prohibited in both OT (Leviticus 18) & NT (Romans 1; I Corinthians 6, etc) on a moral basis, not a ceremonial basis. The OT punishment for these acts was death - There isn't such a severe penalty for infractions of the ceremonial laws.

• The suggestion that the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed because of their "lack of hospitality", not their sexual immorality - Check out Jude 7 in the NT, you bible scholars;

• The fact that Jesus didn't say anything recorded in the bible about homosexuality - Christians believe that Jesus is the Living Word and that He is the inspiration for the whole Bible, including the bits that the Apostle Paul wrote & that some people seem to take particular exception to.) Jesus didn't say anything directly about a number of other issues - e.g. incest, kidnap, paedophilia, etc - Are we to infer that He must therefore now affirm/permit these things, too, or do we simply accept that he didn't have to restate those things because they are still plainly & morally wrong and censured elsewhere in the Bible?

On a more positive note, just in case anyone is interested, there is a Christian organisation called Living Out founded by Christians who live with same-sex attractions which encourages churches to welcome all those with a same-sex attraction but also encourages them to live a life of faith in Jesus Christ which reconciles their sexuality with the teachings of the bible. This doesn't have to be an either/or issue. It can be one where truth, honesty and justice come together in a positive way.

[quote amoosee]@paws17

I hope you don't have any gay children, for their sake.[/quote]
I don't but if I had, I hope I would still have been able to love them into the Kingdom of God, for their sake.

I don't but if I had, I hope I would still have been able to love them into the Kingdom of God, for their sake.

Wouldn't you rather have a child capable of free thinking so they could make up their own minds about religion?
It seems very arrogant to assume you know the "ultimate truth"

On a more positive note, just in case anyone is interested, there is a Christian organisation called Living Out founded by Christians who live with same-sex attractions which encourages churches to welcome all those with a same-sex attraction but also encourages them to live a life of faith in Jesus Christ which reconciles their sexuality with the teachings of the bible. This doesn't have to be an either/or issue. It can be one where truth, honesty and justice come together in a positive way.

An organisation that tells people they have to be single their whole lives, can never have a relationship and fall in love. Or worse, marry someone of the opposite sex. That's not positive that's disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting them.

I don't

Thankfully, considering the vile organisations you promote.

but also encourages them to live a life of faith in Jesus Christ which reconciles their sexuality with the teachings of the bible.

Yes- and what that means is vile.

So in essence that church is saying it's ok to be gay, as long as you never have a romantic or sexual relationship with somone of the same sex, never marry, them all will be fine.
What a hideous cruel doctrine that is happy to resign a homosexual person to a sexless, loveless, partnership life- but that's ok eh- god still "accepts" the "gayness".
It is a foul, putrid and inhumane way of treating people.
Both my mother and sister belong to churches with this thinking ( both different churches). Keen to show how much they accept "the gays" " not their fault poor things", one of them even has a gay conversion clinic.
So being gay in your head is ok, but the church doesn't accept how you want to live your life if that includes being fully human.

It's so fucked up, makes me want to weep.

@paws17
Jesus didn't say anything directly about a number of other issues - e.g. incest, kidnap, paedophilia, etc - Are we to infer that He must therefore now affirm/permit these things, too, or do we simply accept that he didn't have to restate those things because they are still plainly & morally wrong and censured elsewhere in the Bible?

Did you really just fucking compare homosexuality - which harms absolutely no one by the way, unlike the homophobic bile you're spewing - to incest kidnap and paedophilia?

No one wants to be called a homophobe, eh? Well if the shoe fits.

@paws17

At least you're (relatively) open about being homophobic I guess. Extra hate points for comparing gay people to paedophiles and incest.

How sad you'd want a child of yours never to have a romantic partner, a love of their life, a loving co-parent to kids if they were gay. FYI if you do have kids, they may well be gay but never tell you. I know I wouldn't.

As evidenced in your response to me, you preach hate, not love. But as I said, at least you're open about it.

Did you really just fucking compare homosexuality - which harms absolutely no one by the way, unlike the homophobic bile you're spewing - to incest kidnap and paedophilia?

Wow they did, and it's vile that this person is comparing homosexuality to the above, I thought we had left this thinking a while ago.

It's a truly bizarre and quixotic god who, in his omnipotence, apparently chooses to create people who are only attracted to those of the same sex only to tell them it would be wicked to express those attractions - whilst allowing even the most evil of heterosexuals free rein in that regard. It really baffles me how people manage to construct that sort of being in their minds, let alone choose to worship him.

Same @GoodPrincessWenceslas

Stephen Fry put it perfectly IMO when asked what he would say if it turned out god was real and he was faced with him. He answered:

“I’ll say: bone cancer in children, what’s that about? How dare you how dare you create a world where there is such misery that’s not our fault? It’s utterly, utterly evil.

Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?

The god who created this universe, if he created this universe, is quite clearly a maniac, an utter maniac, totally selfish. We have to spend our lives on our knees thanking him. What kind of god would do that?

Yes the world is very splendid, but it also has in it insects whose whole life cycle is to burrow into the eyes of children and make them blind.”

It does intrigue me that some people seem to get so upset about someone/some being that they emphatically believe is just an unfortunate figment of the warped and unsound minds of deceivers and fantasists and an ancient book which they believe to be completely devoid of historical merit, accuracy or relevance.

I've only contributed to this thread because the OP invited us all to do so - and since the Alpha course is about promotion of bible-based Christianity, I did what few others appear to have been willing to do - provide a glimpse of what the bible - not me personally - has to say about certain issues of topical interest.

In doing so, I have attracted the predictable name-calling that stems from the tendency to criticise & blame the messenger rather than the message. This problem seems to rear its head whenever sensitive issues are up for discussion - be it Trans issues, Brexit, the desirability of Covid mass vaccinations, etc. So, anyone who says something that we disagree with must be accused of "hate-speech" and "XXXX-phobia or YYYY-ism. Surely an enlightened society can cope with the concept of hearing alternative viewpoints, even if they are unpalatable for some/many?

I can't apologise to you all for the fact that God (if He does exist) seems to be critical of a wide range of typical human behaviours in the publication which has been held to be His inspired work for the last 2000 years - and the basis of the Christian faith. I didn't write the bible - and it's definitely not my right to judge anyone - including my own children - about what God may be saying or not saying about human behaviour.

The only message I would share is my own belief that if anyone wants to do business with God at any time in their life, they'll need to do so on the basis of His revealed plans & purposes for the human race, as recorded in the bible, and avail themselves of the simple means He has already provided for obtaining forgiveness and coming into a restored relationship with Him i.e. repentance & putting their trust in the redeeming & cleansing work of His son, Jesus, on that famous cross.

Stephen Fry may be the cleverest man in the world but confronting God with his "bone-cancer in children" challenge is likely to be wasted effort if he's not already read & digested Genesis 1 to 3, which explains fully why there is currently so much misery and distress in the world - and Revelation 21 to 22, which assures those who do believe & trust in Him that it won't always be that way.

@paws17
In doing so, I have attracted the predictable name-calling that stems from the tendency to criticise & blame the messenger rather than the message. This problem seems to rear its head whenever sensitive issues are up for discussion - be it Trans issues, Brexit, the desirability of Covid mass vaccinations, etc. So, anyone who says something that we disagree with must be accused of "hate-speech" and "XXXX-phobia or YYYY-ism. Surely an enlightened society can cope with the concept of hearing alternative viewpoints, even if they are unpalatable for some/many?

Yes how dare people call you, who just compared homosexuality to paedophilia and promoted a homophobic group, a homophobe?

@amoosee - I think I have been very clear throughout that it is same-sex sexual acts which are criticised in the Bible, not people who have same-sex "attraction & desires" - and also, that "Living Out" was actually founded by a group of gay Christians, for gay Christians. Are you suggesting that gay people can be homophobic? Perhaps that explains why detransitioners get such a bad press, if they get any press at all.

[quote paws17]**@amoosee* - I think I have been very clear throughout that it is same-sex sexual acts which are criticised in the Bible, not people who have same-sex "attraction & desires" - and also, that "Living Out"* was actually founded by a group of gay Christians, for gay Christians. Are you suggesting that gay people can be homophobic? Perhaps that explains why detransitioners get such a bad press, if they get any press at all.[/quote]
Of course gay people can be homophobic

The organisation you linked to tells gay people that they should either remain single and never have a romantic or sexual relationship their entire lives or should marry a member of the opposite sex.

@paws17

Stephen Fry may be the cleverest man in the world but confronting God with his "bone-cancer in children" challenge is likely to be wasted effort if he's not already read & digested Genesis 1 to 3, which explains fully why there is currently so much misery and distress in the world - and Revelation 21 to 22, which assures those who do believe & trust in Him that it won't always be that way.

You keep citing words / passages from the Bible as if they are objective proof. They are not proof, they are an entirely biased source that requires faith to be believed.

'Well god explains this' doesn't mean anything to people who don't believe in god.

And you really don't get it - you say you don't understand how people can be angry with god if they don't believe in him. They aren't. They're angry with people who preach hate under the umbrella of 'god said xyz' and with the premise / concept that an all powerful, loving deity would allow such cruelty to occur in the world.

Again, for future discussions you may have with atheists - citing the Bible as proof when speaking to a non believer is entirely nonsensical.

The only message I would share is my own belief that if anyone wants to do business with God at any time in their life, they'll need to do so on the basis of His revealed plans & purposes for the human race, as recorded in the bible, and avail themselves of the simple means He has already provided for obtaining forgiveness and coming into a restored relationship with Him i.e. repentance & putting their trust in the redeeming & cleansing work of His son, Jesus, on that famous cross.

The problem is that what is in the bible is not the revealed plan of any deity, but what a very disparate group of people who are products of the societies they lived in thought should be the plan. If Jesus turned up now and his followers started writing down his life and teachings without benefit of transcripts, you can bet that what they chose to record would be coloured by their own perceptions and values.

@allyouvegottenminuteslynn @allGoodPrincessWenceslas

Again, for future discussions you may have with atheists - citing the Bible as proof when speaking to a non believer is entirely nonsensical.

I understand people's irritation about the way that Christians seem to put so much faith in the contents of some ancient document scrolls - but if you take away the bible you take away the only physical artifact that gives any credence & validity to the framework of beliefs and practices that is Christianity. As soon as people start embellishing the message of the bible with their own modern nuances or ignoring bits that don't suit them, you may get more "peace on earth" but you can't call it genuine Christianity anymore.

@amoosee @allyouvegottenminuteslynn @allAgainstmachine

Yes how dare people call you, who just compared homosexuality to paedophilia

To be fair to myself, if you re-read my earlier comments, you'll see that I wasn't comparing homosexuality to paedophilia. I listed a few issues that, like homosexuality, are not mentioned in the bible by Jesus in response to an argument put forward by some that if Jesus didn't mention it, it must mean that He didn't have a view on the matter.

Of course there are lots of other issues that Jesus did mention in his ministry which those of us who do believe need to be equally challenged by. (Unkindness, hatred, jealousy, divorce, gluttony, lies, stealing, adultery, cheating, ignoring the plight of the poor & widows, etc, etc.)

@paws17

I read your comments just fine.

You believe, I assume, that if someone gay has same sex sexual partners, they go to hell? Even if they are great people who are kind and loving, but just happen to be gay and have a same sex sexual partner?

It's baffling to me if you believe that (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're offended when people call you homophobic.

@FourTeaFallOut

Rearranging your beliefs to better mirror your partner doesn't scream healthy relationship though.

It's not as if she's going from being a fundamentalist Muslim or observant Jew to joining some weird sect though, is it? She's previously been "agnostic" and not a convinced atheist, so has always been open to the idea there's a God.

She's in love with a partner to whom God and the church are important, and I wouldn't find it concerning that she's exploring whether she wants to get more involved with that aspect of his life.

We’re atheists. Would think it was not my business.