Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be worried my sister is doing the Alpha course?

510 replies

Southtrainer · 11/12/2021 11:30

Just for a bit of context. My family is and always has been agnostic and left wing. My sister (early thirties) recently met a new partner who comes from a very religious evangelical Christian family. Their relationship surprised us all thinking there was be such a gulf that they wouldn’t stay together long but recently my brother told me my sister is doing the Alpha course and he was concerned she might have some pressure on her to convert to their religion. I’d this right? I’ve never had any experience of this course or religion. I’m worried. Thanks for any info or experiences x

OP posts:
PerfectPrepPrincess · 11/12/2021 19:39

They're on every high street. They're full of white, middle class, well educated people.

Seriously Hmm not in a city. Ever been to one in London? Ever watched any documentaries based in the USA? What about Africa? China?

TatianaBis · 11/12/2021 19:58

Does anyone on this thread with happy clappy experience know what ‘prophetic’ within evangelicalism is. I don’t mean the prophets in the bible.

PerfectPrepPrincess · 11/12/2021 20:03

Prophetic evangelism
A method employed mainly by charismatic Christians. This is where (as its practitioners believe) God speaks through a Christian to a non-believer to say something that will prompt that person to seek God.
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ap...
Approaches to evangelism - Wikipedia

TatianaBis · 11/12/2021 20:14

Thanks, from what I’ve seen it seems particularly rum.

EducatingArti · 11/12/2021 20:20

[quote julieca]@EducatingArti if the church as an institution is not homophobic, then why won't it marry a same-sex couple?[/quote]
That is a good question.
I suspect we have different definitions of 'the church".
To me "the church" is not an institution but the body of believers who call Christ "Lord" and seek to live, being transformed into his likeness. Some are homophobic but not all by any means.
It would be fair to say that the rules and institutions of the formalised C of E and Roman Catholic church demonstrate homophobia in respect of marriage.
The rules of eg the Methodist church are much more liberal and most would be happy to marry same sex couples in their churches if the law of the land permitted this ( which as I understand it, it doesn't). Some C of E churches ( individual congregations) would also like to conduct such marriages were they allowed by law and the C of E hierarchy.

So, for me, it is too simplistic to say "the church" is homophobic in this regard, because it does not apply to all individual Christians, congregations or indeed denominations.
The church is (as is each individual) a work in progress. Sometimes we are piss poor at showing the love and grace of Christ. Sometimes we do better. Some parts are poorer or better at some things than other parts are. No Christian ( or any other person) is perfect and everyone has their blind spots. We seek to be transformed by Christ. We are not there yet. My views on many things including homosexuality have shifted and changed over time and I feel sad and embarrassed at some of my past actions and attitudes. Others have progressed much further than me in different areas.
There is always a tension which can be seen throughout history when some within the church seek reform. It often leads to painful fallout and schism. Where Christians can negotiate change from within whilst avoiding schism and faction, they do well I think, but it it is a hard and lengthy process. If I claim to know a God who is love, should I not aim (even though I drastically fail) to love all his children, even though I may hate some of the things some of them say and do? I don't have to agree with them, there are times when I need to speak out about things that are concerning/damaging/wrong, heck there are some of them I can't even stand! But I need to respect and love them as people as best I can. Every Christian who thinks deeply about things faces the challenge of when to remain within a current organisation in order to change it from within, and when to leave. No Christian is likely to find an individual congregation where they agree on everything. I think that it is evident in many spheres of disagreement from the Northern Island situation, party politics and even the discussion on these boards, that more change is achieved by good listening, acceptance, and care for the other than by strident argument that just leaves people more entrenched in their previous views.

I suspect many of you may be outraged at me saying I have a need to love and respect those who believe homosexuality is not how God intends people to live. I know! It goes without saying that I and others need even more to love, care for and support those who have been victims of abuse of all kinds, especially from within the church. But there we have it!
As Christians we seek to be "changed from glory, unto glory, till at last we see his face". We are asked to love each other as well as those outside the Christian faith. I hope and pray that those who have prejudices will be changed and transformed as they are loved ( whist also acknowledging I will have my own prejudices that I am blind to at the moment) .

SuPerDoPer · 11/12/2021 20:23

I was in a relationship with someone who was raised as a Christian and still held those beliefs. As someone who was raised as an atheist I had NO IDEA what Christianity was about (aside from basic school RE lessons, which I largely ignored). The relationship didn't last and our ignorance of each others upbringing and family background was at least part of that. Maybe your sister just wants to learn more?

Midlifemusings · 11/12/2021 20:36

@TatianaBis

Did you read the thread? There are dozens of different descriptions from people sure about what Alpha is or isn't, what it includes or doesn't, what its purpose is or isn't.... and similar about Christianity / evangelicals. I don't think it is specific to this thread or religions.

SSOYS · 11/12/2021 20:39

It’s the Alpha Course not the People’s Temple Confused

mordinvasnormandy · 11/12/2021 20:41

@WOTW

YABU! I am a Christian and would offer a similar course to folks in our area. The Alpha course (and the one we do) is used simply to provide information about the Christian faith. There's absolutely no pressure to convert, in fact, most Christian's (including myself) don't believe you can force someone to convert. Either they believe or they don't. We don't push.

It's funny, so many people will decide they are agnostic, or atheist without actually exploring what Christianity is all about. Your sister is showing an interest and "hearing them out" I guess you could say. I don't think this is a reason for concern, but actually, it's refreshing to see someone with an open mind. She may do the course and decide she still doesn't believe, and that's absolutely fine. It's only short videos and a discussion. Leave her be.

@WOTW

So her suddenly ditching all her gay friends is not a massive red flag to you?

HobgoblinGold · 11/12/2021 20:41

Ive done the alpha course 3-4 times. I'm still an agnostic.

ALightThatNeverGoesOut · 11/12/2021 20:42

To me "the church" is not an institution but the body of believers who call Christ "Lord" and seek to live, being transformed into his likeness.

Handy.

I guess you could say every institution in the world is hunky dory if you get to define it yourself and pick out the bits you like.

Negligee · 11/12/2021 20:43

@HobgoblinGold

Ive done the alpha course 3-4 times. I'm still an agnostic.
Why did you do it so often? Was someone ferociously attractive delivering it or something?
TatianaBis · 11/12/2021 20:43

[quote Midlifemusings]@TatianaBis

Did you read the thread? There are dozens of different descriptions from people sure about what Alpha is or isn't, what it includes or doesn't, what its purpose is or isn't.... and similar about Christianity / evangelicals. I don't think it is specific to this thread or religions.[/quote]
Of course I’ve read the thread. You didn’t answer my question which related to this statement of yours:

The either intentional or unintentional misinformation on here about Alpha, Christianity, and evangelicals is pretty mind boggling!

ALightThatNeverGoesOut · 11/12/2021 20:48

Ive done the alpha course 3-4 times. I'm still an agnostic.

Not sure what statements like this are meant to prove. It quite clearly is a useful tool in terms of conversion just by looking at the numbers it's generated. Obviously it doesn't work on everyone because nothing does including torture. But it's purpose is to create convert. You really think any religion organises events talking about itself in the expectation that no one will join up?

EducatingArti · 11/12/2021 20:48

@ALightThatNeverGoesOut

To me "the church" is not an institution but the body of believers who call Christ "Lord" and seek to live, being transformed into his likeness.

Handy.

I guess you could say every institution in the world is hunky dory if you get to define it yourself and pick out the bits you like.

I don't define it like this because I feel like it and because it is "handy" . It is how I understand that Jesus and the early church described in the Bible thought about the church . I'm also far from claiming the church is hunky dory as I think can be seen from the rest of my post. I don't even think that I am that hunky dory to be fair!!
hivemindneeded · 11/12/2021 20:50

@ALightThatNeverGoesOut

If they're not after converting people then why is Alpha exclusively for non believers?
It's not. It is widely advertised in church services for existing Christians who might want to explore the faith more. When I did it everyone already went to church. When my very agnostic friend did it on all five occasions she was the only non-church goer.
youvegottenminuteslynn · 11/12/2021 20:51

It would be fair to say that the rules and institutions of the formalised C of E and Roman Catholic church demonstrate homophobia in respect of marriage.

A less wordy, more accurate assessment: "It would be fair to say that the rules and institutions of the formalised C of E and Roman Catholic church are homophobic."

I wish that more religious people would say they know the rules of their church are homophobic and struggle with that knowledge greatly, but ultimately still choose to follow that faith and believe what the religion tells them to even if it's homophobic and unpalatable to us non religious people.

Rather than always say the bits that 'sound' homophobic / misogynist / sexist etc happen to not apply to their specific church. Or admit they agree that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Nobody ever seems to admit that, yet we know many people believe it.

While I think it's an inherently wrong thing to believe, I would at least expect someone with real conviction to be open about believing it. After all, faith is supposed to empower people to speak their truth rather than say what causes the least kickback or makes them unpopular.

Campfirewood · 11/12/2021 20:53

YABU! I am a Christian and would offer a similar course to folks in our area. The Alpha course (and the one we do) is used simply to provide information about the Christian faith. There's absolutely no pressure to convert, in fact, mYABU! I am a Christian and would offer a similar course to folks in our area. The Alpha course (and the one we do) is used simply to provide information about the Christian faith. There's absolutely no pressure to convert, in fact, most Christian's (including myself) don't believe you can force someone to convert. Either they believe or they don't. We don't push. ost Christian's (including myself) don't believe you can force someone to convert. Either they believe or they don't. We don't push.

Yes, this. I have been involved with numerous churches. We've never tried to convert anyone. Gay people attended the churches and most did a lot to support the community... food banks, pamper sessions for DA victims, presents for kids in prison, supported an African children's charity, people from the church moved to Indian and sent money to support a children's charity there, helped people out of debt...

satci · 11/12/2021 20:57

@LadyMary50

The other thing to note,if anyone goes on to convert and be baptised they have to agree to subscribe a third of their salary a month to the church…
Really?
EnidSpyton · 11/12/2021 21:25

@PerfectPrepPrincess

They're on every high street. They're full of white, middle class, well educated people.

Seriously Hmm not in a city. Ever been to one in London? Ever watched any documentaries based in the USA? What about Africa? China?

I'm a born and bred Londoner.

Lived here all my life apart from a brief sojourn in the US.

All my church experience has been in London and a very big US city.

The type of evangelism I'm talking about is a largely white and middle class one. And it's all over London, by the way. Trinity Brompton, home of Alpha, is in Kensington, for goodness' sake!

Churches in Africa and China are a different kettle of fish altogether. Some of the stories from Africa about those spreading the prosperity gospel, persuading desperate people with barely anything to live on to give all they have to the church, are truly awful.

EnidSpyton · 11/12/2021 21:34

@youvegottenminuteslynn

It would be fair to say that the rules and institutions of the formalised C of E and Roman Catholic church demonstrate homophobia in respect of marriage.

A less wordy, more accurate assessment: "It would be fair to say that the rules and institutions of the formalised C of E and Roman Catholic church are homophobic."

I wish that more religious people would say they know the rules of their church are homophobic and struggle with that knowledge greatly, but ultimately still choose to follow that faith and believe what the religion tells them to even if it's homophobic and unpalatable to us non religious people.

Rather than always say the bits that 'sound' homophobic / misogynist / sexist etc happen to not apply to their specific church. Or admit they agree that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Nobody ever seems to admit that, yet we know many people believe it.

While I think it's an inherently wrong thing to believe, I would at least expect someone with real conviction to be open about believing it. After all, faith is supposed to empower people to speak their truth rather than say what causes the least kickback or makes them unpopular.

Absolutely.

So many Christians tie themselves into knots trying to get out of having to admit they're homophobic. 'Oh we accept everyone, but...'

Have the courage of your convictions. You either believe it all, or surely you can't actually believe any of it.

Once you start picking and choosing what bits you like and what you don't, you make a mockery of the whole thing.

Christianity is not just about loving other people and doing good works. By claiming a Christian identity you bring all this other baggage along with you. The baggage that excludes, that marginalises, that diminishes. You can't just ignore it or pretend it's not there. It's written into the text that you say is the foundation of your religion. The text that you believe is God breathed. So if God really does think women exist to serve men and that gay people are the scum of the earth, then you need to actually confront that and decide if you really want to align yourself with that. And if you do, then fine, but admit it. Don't try and pretend that you 'don't believe that bit' or 'that bit of the Bible is outdated'. Like I say, you can't pick and choose. It's all or nothing. It's all woven into the same cloth.

Cherryana · 11/12/2021 22:07

I think that Christianity attracts a certain rule following low on the openness scale type of person.

As someone high on the openness scale I find that I find the narrow mindedness and continual regurgitation of things without proper thought very difficult.

BUT I also know many intelligent and thoughtful and genuinely the most kind people, I know, are Christians. |I try to avoid the former type and spend more time with the latter.

StoneofDestiny · 11/12/2021 22:12

Sounds more worrying her partner is 'a fundamentalist Christian' that her doing the Alpha Course.

kmblark · 12/12/2021 11:28

It's worth pointing out that Nicky Gumble, who help start the alpha course, is deeply homophobic.

Negligee · 12/12/2021 12:10

@kmblark

It's worth pointing out that Nicky Gumble, who help start the alpha course, is deeply homophobic.
He is. He believes homosexuality can be ‘healed’. He’s also an astute political mover, a prolifically successful writer of simplistic books which are essentially worryingly influential assertions of pre-Enlightenment thinking (speaking in tongues, faith healing etc), and a lot of Christians, even within the C of E find Alpha profoundly problematic for its conservatism and evangelicalism, and obsession with the charismatic. He is the poster boy for a bewilderingly stupid, worryingly mainstream cult within modern Christianity.
Swipe left for the next trending thread