AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

"Scientifically" I think it is a bit more complex than that

Science tells us quite clearly that men cannot turn into a woman because he says so. Intersex is something completely different and people with intersex conditions on the whole completely resent your rubbish attempted equivalence (I am not including those people who exploit their condition for sporting “success”)

@AnyFucker

A male presenting as a male, female or as a fucking teapot should not be in a women’s rape therapy group

This x a million

People with DSD have repeatedly asked not be brought into this debate, Stompy Please respect that.
And do you think @IamSarah has "unreasonable prejudice" Really?????????

@Stompythedinosaur I notice you still haven't commented on the fact there was effectively two groups for TW to choose from, but only one for natal women (who I would guess far outnumber TW as victims) and none for a woman traumatised by the male presence.

Maybe that's too difficult for you answer 🤷‍♀️

@IamSarah I’m sorry you’ve had to go through through this, and can’t work out why some people think a male ‘presenting’ as a woman (how? Long hair, dress, shaved legs? Are females who have short hair, wear trousers and don’t shave their legs not women?) has a right to be included whereas a male ‘presenting’ as a man does not. I think all that gender ideologists state is that someone merely has to say they ‘identify’ as a woman to be included in what I think should be a single sex group. Surely whatever your views on whether transwomen are really women or not, you can see that this opens a massive loophole for predatory males (whether ‘genuinely transgender’ or not) to be able to access a group designed for females who have been traumatised by males. Surely there needs to be a female only space, and people who identify as trans should also receive support but in a group separate to this one. I genuinely don’t understand the debate on this. I really hope you can get the support you need

I’m trying to #bekind here to people who believe something different to me about gender and respect their beliefs. It’s a shame you haven’t been given the same respect, especially given what you have been through.

So TW get 3 groups.

Women get 0 groups.

Disgusting.

YADNBU

@Stompythedinosaur I think we'd get on.

Also @IamSarah, thank you for having the courage to raise this in as many places as you can, presumably knowing what some people’s responses might be, and how horrible this might be for you to read. To be prepared to be exposed to that on top of the trauma you have already experienced shows a truly strong woman. Please know your actions are helping other people to feel strong enough to also speak out about this, whether anonymously or not. When people have received threats of sexual violence and lost their jobs or been arrested for challenging this it’s a scary thing to do. People like you are helping me articulate my arguments and become less scared.

[quote TheLovelinessOfBaublyDemons]@Stompythedinosaur I think we'd get on.[/quote]
Oh! So you might be able to answer the questins Stompy has faltered on?

How does a man become a woman? What is that science?

What is unfair about transwomen having multiple groups to access and women having none?

Thanks @Anothernamechange3

I want people who chant the mantra 'trans women are women' to know what the consequences are for women like me who now can't access rape crisis.

I know TRAs are a lost cause and have zero empathy with female sexual violence survivors but I wish 'feminists' like Emma Watson would stop and think for a minute.

What do those who think "transwomen" should be in women's groups think the point of a dedicated "women"'s group is?

If excluding men who say they're women is "unreasonable prejudice", why isn't excluding men who don't say they're women "unreasonable prejudice"? What's your justification for excluding other men?

I understand our view very clearly - males are traumatising for most females who have been assaulted by a male, so it's best to have a female-only group. Especially as almost all service users will be females who have been assaulted by males. You obviously have to concentrate on the needs of the majority of your clients.

But I can't understand why you're discriminating against most males while permitting others.

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

@Stompythedinosaur you claim to have experience in running support groups.

If you actually do run a support group you will known that providers of services need written policy and procedures.

Your position is that it is appropriate to provide different services.

Can you please expand on what elements you would use to differentiate between
•a male presenting as a male who was sexually assaulted
and
• a male presenting as a woman who was sexually assaulted
when it comes to including or excluding them from groups providing support for people who were sexually assaulted?

IMO having a policy of "Google it" would not be an acceptable work practice for any competent support group.

Thanks

And in response to pps asking why people who think differently about this issue don't post - it is because voicing acceptance of trans women as women on mn tends to be met with a barrage of abuse rather than a helpful conversation.

Hyperbole Alert!!

No. People who voice acceptance of transwoman as women are asked questions and to support many of their claims as to why this subset of males should be allowed access into female single sex spaces, sports and the opportunities needed by females to progress due to a millennia of sexist discrimination.

If you cannot actually provide this support, evidence driven support and not mantras and blog posts. That will be pointed out.

And if you don't like that it is pointed out, then that is on you.

We are always happy to engage in looking at new evidence, studies, and science. In fact, many of us enjoy it.

OP. You are most definitely not being unreasonable.

I am very sorry to hear that you have now been effectively rejected entirely by this group.

@IamSarah

Thanks *@Anothernamechange3*

I want people who chant the mantra 'trans women are women' to know what the consequences are for women like me who now can't access rape crisis.

I know TRAs are a lost cause and have zero empathy with female sexual violence survivors but I wish 'feminists' like Emma Watson would stop and think for a minute.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by a couple of posters on this thread, the TWAW mantra chanters also have zero empathy for females who have experienced violence at the hands of males, their sole focus in on males as, as far as they are concerned, the male feelings and wants are paramount. There is nothing remotely feminist about their stance, they extend their kindness and empathy only to males.

Did they have a group for men? Men do experience domestic violence and rape.

It seems that they didn't have a group for him from what you've said.

Personally I haven't experienced what you have so I know know how you feel but more generally a group for rape survivors for instance isn't sex specific

Only on mn is it a far out belief to say it is OK to be trans.

This is more hyperbole.

I think it is probably safe to say that many posters, including the regulars on the FWR board are very supportive of trans people. It is where there are conflicts with those rights and needs of females and children that people prioritise the needs of the females and children over a subset of males.

It is always interesting that people framing MN posters as having these negative opinions forget that many posters support the needs of female trans people. Why is it that usually those posters stating that people 'not supporting trans people' seem to forget the females who identify as trans still require sex based rights?

Either way, the constant framing of 'MN' in this negative way seems to stem from poster's own prejudices rather than being shaped by reality.

The idea that anyone who has the unbelievable insensitivity to come on a discussion board started by a rape survivor and say this: The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear is not someone who ought to be responsible for helping the MH of anyone else. Absolutely incredible.

Who are the 2%?

100% vile for sure.

@katrina11

Is it right that you were actually offered 1-1 counselling but instead ran to the Daily Mail? Thereby launching an attack on a rape crisis centre that's been inclusive for years!

OP states upthread that the waiting time for 1 - 1 was 18 months. As you'll know yourself if you're one of the 1 in 14 women who experience rape or attempted rape each year, 18 months is way too long to have to wait for help.

@katrina11
Op wasn’t offered 1-1 counselling. She was offered the opportunity to be put on a waiting list with an anticipated wait time of 18 months. What use is that to her?

@DrBlackbird

The idea that anyone who has the unbelievable insensitivity to come on a discussion board started by a rape survivor and say this: The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear is not someone who ought to be responsible for helping the MH of anyone else. Absolutely incredible.

It's just slogan parroting. Because they have no real answers, just slogans.

I would also like to endorse @AnyFucker's teapot comment.

@MothershipG "Reality is that Sarah was traumatised by a person with a penis and so of course does not want to put herself in a vulnerable position around people with penises.
How is this in anyway unreasonable?"

It isn't, but that would also apply to a man who has been raped by a man?