AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

[IamSarah]

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU?

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

If group support isn't for you

Ahem. You have it arse ways about. This group that admits men is not for women. Fixed it for you.

So theyve thrown a tantrum at a whistle blowing victim of sexual abuse and are trying to gaslight and further abuse you by silent treatment because you thought it appropriate to hold them up to public scrutiny and accountability?

You know what. This group aren't interested in giving support to women. And as such they should be investigated and shut down. With money redistributed to an actual women's charity who puts the needs of women front and central rather than as an added extra to the feelings of men who don't respect the boundaries of women.

I am so very glad you have gone public. Its appalling the sheer amount of silencing and marginalising of very vulnerable women in the name of inclusivity.

And in response to pps asking why people who think differently about this issue don't post - it is because voicing acceptance of trans women as women on mn tends to be met with a barrage of abuse rather than a helpful conversation.

I have to say I am at the idea that trans people need a special group but somehow women aren’t allowed their special group….

Are transpeople so special then?

Why is everyone focused on trans? The scenario here is a man presenting as a man. Men can also be victims of rape.

Men and women can also be victimized by a same sex attacker / perpetrator. Not all women who are raped have the same physical experience.

OP doesn't mention a men's group so it sounds like perhaps someone suggested he attend the women's group? I agree that could be uncomfortable for everyone but a very different issue than being trans. Sounds like they need a men's group as well so that those who want a single-sex group can all access service.

This is just so wrong. Why can Trans have a separate group and not female women?

@Stompythedinosaur

And in response to pps asking why people who think differently about this issue don't post - it is because voicing acceptance of trans women as women on mn tends to be met with a barrage of abuse rather than a helpful conversation.

Well if transwomen see themselves as women p, why do they need a special group just for them as a trans person? Does that not say that their needs are different and they should be (are asking for’ treated differently?

If their needs are so different they need a different type of group, then they shouldn’t be mixing with women…. Because surely, a group with women will not be able to cater for their need. Right?

I think the situation being described here is very similar

It’s not even remotely similar. Unless you consider men pretending to be women to be an expression of sexuality. Which apparently it isn’t…according to the trans rights movement. Nothing to do with how you get your sexual kicks…no sirree.

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

And there is a trans group. And a mixed sex group, for people identifying as women.

Why should biological females not also be allowed their own group? As permitted under the Equality Act?

@Midlifemusings as far as I know, there are some specific groups for men…..

Sounds like they need a men's group as well so that those who want a single-sex group can all access service

That would be farrrr too sensible

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

What about all the vulnerable women who dont share this belief and have a very emotional and legitimate fear of males?

How do they just stop those traumatic feelings if they aren't allowed to access support for wrongthink?

A transwomen going to a transwomens group gets support. Its available. But no. This isnt good enough.

A woman who needs single sex support is just told to fuck off or wait 18months. The support isn't available. Her needs are second to a males.

Belief in transgenderism is whether you like it or not, not compulsory. It is protected by law.

There are legitimate single sex provision exceptions. This group is refusing to use them.

Thats discrimination. A woman cant get support. The transwoman has several options and is picking and choosing at the expense of women. Male sex win at expense of female sex. Discrimination.

YANBU. I'm so sorry you had to go through this.

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

Interesting perspective. Do you think it's fair that a male who identifies as non binary has the choice of three groups depending on how they feel that day? (Men's, women's or trans) yet a woman with male triggered PTSD has no group?

Do you think biological / cis women should be able to access the trans group?

@LostForIdeas

I have to say I am at the idea that trans people need a special group but somehow women aren’t allowed their special group….

Are transpeople so special then?

Clearly the people interviewed have never had a smear test or vaginal ultrasound!

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

But the TW already has a group to go to. That's the point. Women like Sarah who would be traumatised by a male presence have nowhere to go, yet TW - a far smaller number than natal women, apparently have the choice of two groups.

You'd have a point if there was no group for TW - but there is!

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

There is a separate group for transwomen. They are able to access support.

There absolutely should be a group for biological women only.

Not everyone supports self ID or that gender is more important than sex.

Male bodied people will never understand the experience of sexual assault of a female bodied person. Because they do not have female genitalia.

@LostForIdeas

I just checked their website as OP posted the organization and they only list one peer support group and it says it is for self-identifying women. It doesn't mention the trans/non-binary group that OP mentioned or any services specifically for male victims at all.

Possibly the man who attended might prefer a single sex support group as well but maybe felt that some peer support was better than none since they didn't have support groups for male victims.

It looks like the support group has been online during the pandemic so maybe they took a different approach since people aren't in a space together and its just people's heads on camera? Who knows. I don't think many places have male and female victims together so this seems very unusual and the man attending goes against the criteria this organization itself has posted as to who the group is for (self-identifying women).

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

No, you don't want everyone to be able to access appropriate support after rape. You want to exclude women who have been so severely traumitised by an act of violence, where the penis is used as a weapon, to the point where they do not feel able to be comfortable with a male, however that person identifies. Any women would recognise this. The situation is much more visceral than a belief that homosexuality is wrong and your belief that there are grounds for comparison clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding.

Yanbu OP. I'd be livid. When will this lunacy end.

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

Rape specifically requires a penis in English & Welsh law.

All transwomen are male (XY), and the majority retain their genitals (and sense of male entitlement).

Is it really "prejudice" for raped women to not want to talk about the trauma inflicted upon them by a penis, in front of people with penises?

[quote Midlifemusings]@LostForIdeas

I just checked their website as OP posted the organization and they only list one peer support group and it says it is for self-identifying women. It doesn't mention the trans/non-binary group that OP mentioned or any services specifically for male victims at all.

Possibly the man who attended might prefer a single sex support group as well but maybe felt that some peer support was better than none since they didn't have support groups for male victims.

It looks like the support group has been online during the pandemic so maybe they took a different approach since people aren't in a space together and its just people's heads on camera? Who knows. I don't think many places have male and female victims together so this seems very unusual and the man attending goes against the criteria this organization itself has posted as to who the group is for (self-identifying women).[/quote]

This group was running at the same time as the women's group I went to:

survivorsnetwork.org.uk/workshops-groupwork-posts/tnbi-online-group/

@Stompythedinosaur

But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

I want everyone to to able to access appropriate support after rape. But what do you expect services to do when you decline to share space based on a prejudice? They are hardly going to exclude another woman who also needs support due to such feelings.

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

That said, if the situation described by the op (an attender who was a man, rather than a trans woman) happened then I think they have been very poorly treated and should complain.

Allow me...

No. The issue here is the rights of women. That's the very root of the isue. It is NOT about inclusivity, being nice to some people. It is about making it impossible for many women to access suport after they have been sexualy assaulted.

You can believe what you want. But what you cannot do is demand that anyone/everyone else join in. A transwoman is a male bodied individual. Every woman, especially one who has been traumatised by male violence, is very sensitive to the physical differneces. Even if yiu wish to suppress that knowledge you wil notice the diffence in gait, comparative limb length, hand size, general posture etc. Try wtaching the next group of cycist that pass you - you will know which are women by the angle of their knees. Or a group of people walking away from you. The hip/spine movement will tell you which is female.That CANNOT be masked

A prejudice? You call the visceral reaction of a recently raped women to the close presence of a man, maybe even an unexpected man a prejudice? How, why?

I don't care what youe experience of running anything is. Your rush to inclusivity hurts women. And no, a gay woman and a male bdied person are not similar.

You also do a great disservcie to transwomen, astheir needs from a rape crisis centre are entirely different form that of women - THINK ABOUT THAT! The physical trauma experienced is as different from the psychological trauma.

Transmen? Have you even considered them? Because I can assure you I have. And I know that they too have entirely different needs from any transwomen. And also from women - mainly because transmen usually have a lot more surgery than transwomen, their end desire being totally different. How do you suggest we accommodate their specific needs in an essentially Open Category rape crisis group?

You may think you are being inclusive and nice. But your desire to ignore the reality of sex only hurts EVERYONE involved.

@IamSarah

Thanks Op, it looks like it no longer runs due to funding.

That doesn't have much to do with the male victim who attended your group. You said this was a man presenting as a man. He also wouldn't be a fit for a trans/non binary group.

@Stompythedinosaur

And in response to pps asking why people who think differently about this issue don't post - it is because voicing acceptance of trans women as women on mn tends to be met with a barrage of abuse rather than a helpful conversation.

That abuse is because that's how you label anything that does not agree with your ideology about men being women.