Page 4 | AIBU to have requested single sex rape crisis therapy?

IamSarah · 2021-12-08T13:56:49+00:00

My local rape crisis centre offers a dedicated support group for trans and non-binary survivors and a women's group open to anyone who identifies as a woman. After a male (presenting as male) turned up in the women's group I requested an additional group for women who were born women. This request was turned down and I was told that group support isn't for me. AIBU? YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women YANBU: Under these circumstances, a single sex group just for biological women was a reasonable request

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 16:04

@AnyFucker

I think the situation being described here is very similar

It’s not even remotely similar. Unless you consider men pretending to be women to be an expression of sexuality. Which apparently it isn’t…according to the trans rights movement. Nothing to do with how you get your sexual kicks…no sirree.

I don't consider a transwoman to be a man pretending to be a woman, and I also don't consider it to be the same issue as sexual orientation.

The similarity is an individual claiming to be excluded from a group due to the group not being willing to exclude another member based on their own unreasonable prejudice.

MothershipG · 08/12/2021 16:05

@Stompythedinosaur
But the issue here is ultimately a trans identity issue.

I believe that a trans woman is a woman, so should be able to attend a woman's group. The reality of that we have no idea and no need to know what is in anyone else's underwear.

Your beliefs are not relevant here.
Reality is that Sarah was traumatised by a person with a penis and so of course does not want to put herself in a vulnerable position around people with penises.
How is this in anyway unreasonable?

Do you also think that if men who have been convicted of sexual offences against women or children decide that they are now women they should be held with vulnerable women in prisons?

Do you think that if a man identifies as a woman he should be allowed to be naked in front of women & girls? Like at the WiSpa? Maybe you think that the girls should avert their eyes?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/12/2021 16:06

[quote Midlifemusings]@IamSarah

Thanks Op, it looks like it no longer runs due to funding.

That doesn't have much to do with the male victim who attended your group. You said this was a man presenting as a man. He also wouldn't be a fit for a trans/non binary group.[/quote]
Ah ah ah! That is transphobic remember. Passing, dressing as, etc has nothing to do with a trans or non binary identity.

Tsk! Tsk!

Original poster

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 16:07

That doesn't have much to do with the male victim who attended your group. You said this was a man presenting as a man. He also wouldn't be a fit for a trans/non binary group.

Presumably the person identified as a woman. To me they appeared to be a typical male with no sign of transitioning.

OP posts:

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/12/2021 16:08

I don't consider a transwoman to be a man pretending to be a woman

So, if you have a logical answer, HOW are they women?

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 16:10

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I don't consider a transwoman to be a man pretending to be a woman

So, if you have a logical answer, HOW are they women?

I'm sure you can google this.

You may disagree with supporting the rights of trans people, but the reality is that the majority of people support the rights of minority groups, and the law is also in support of equality based of gender identity.

Only on mn is it a far out belief to say it is OK to be trans.

Midlifemusings · 08/12/2021 16:10

@IamSarah

I don't think you can presume they identified as a woman. That is a leap.

SilverDragonfly1 · 08/12/2021 16:12

Generally I am very pro trans inclusion and have little patience for the paranoia about the intents of trans people. BUT- the experience of rape is going to be different for different biological sexes. Partly because of the biology of genitalia including post surgery but largely because someone who was raised as a male will have had very different messages around power and sexuality from birth. Women raised as female and trans women need different groups, not because transwomen aren't women but because they have different therapeutic needs. Currently neither group are getting a worthwhile service. Pursuing this angle might help make your point further, because you're certainly not being unreasonable.

ForbiddentoForbid · 08/12/2021 16:13

I don't consider a transwoman to be a man pretending to be a woman, and I also don't consider it to be the same issue as sexual orientation.

You may not "consider" that to be the case. But realistically and scientifically a person with a penis is biologically male.

VestofAbsurdity · 08/12/2021 16:13

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

It actually is almost vomit inducing how wilfully blind people are being to this shit. Telling a rape survivor that they can’t access female only support services is fucking abhorrent.

It is.

Original poster

IamSarah · 08/12/2021 16:13

[quote Midlifemusings]@IamSarah

I don't think you can presume they identified as a woman. That is a leap.[/quote]
It was a women's group and in the introductory call we got asked for our pronouns and gender identity.

OP posts:

LostForIdeas · 08/12/2021 16:13

@Stompythedinosaur could you clarify if you think that the needs or transwomen (and transmen) are the same women (and men) when it comes to rape?

Do you think their experiences are the same?

Could you also explain why, if transwomen are women and should be included in a women’s group, there is still a need for a transwomen specifically?

Also if transwomen are women I assume that women are the same than transwomen . Would it be ok, in your opinion, for a woman to attend a transwomen group?

Midlifemusings · 08/12/2021 16:15

@IamSarah

I should add, I hope you were able to find another support group somewhere else or get 1:1 counselling. It looks like there is also the Saturn Centre in your area. They also have services specifically for male victims so hopefully they can offer 1:1 or single sex

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/12/2021 16:17

I'm sure you can google this.

Google what?

You may disagree with supporting the rights of trans people, but the reality is that the majority of people support the rights of minority groups, and the law is also in support of equality based of gender identity.

Stop it. You know that is twaddle.
What rights do trans people not have?
The law is based on sex equality. gender is nothing to do with it
And, as I have said here, set up, ensure funding, for a support group for both transmen and transwomen. What do YOU do?

Only on mn is it a far out belief to say it is OK to be trans.

Again utter balderdash. You can repeat that cant all you like. But you know full well it simply is not true. It's just a facile attempt to demonise the women here who support women's rights.

It is transparent in its falsehood.

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/12/2021 16:19

I have an experience of running a MH support group where a member didn't want a gay woman to be able to join as this made her uncomfortable and her belief was that homosexuality is wrong. Clearly we did not go along with that. I think the situation being described here is very similar.

If a client came to a group and said they didn't want to participate because x protected characteristic is 'wrong' that's their issue.

If they came to a group and said that they lived in a fictional world where lesbians were in charge of the judiciary, the police, the government and every conceivable institution, that lesbianism was the overarching system of their oppression and that they had been molested by a lesbian and were triggered by their presence and couldn't help their reaction because of PTSD, and every other person in the room had also been molested by lesbians as well, I think I'd have at least a little chat about what support they needed to receive counselling and groupwork. And make sure everyone received appropriate therapeutic input.

Stompythedinosaur · 08/12/2021 16:19

@ForbiddentoForbid

I don't consider a transwoman to be a man pretending to be a woman, and I also don't consider it to be the same issue as sexual orientation.

You may not "consider" that to be the case. But realistically and scientifically a person with a penis is biologically male.

"Scientifically" I think it is a bit more complex than that due to issues around being intersex.

Ultimately the law supports people's right to identify their own gender.

urbanbuddha · 08/12/2021 16:20

The similarity is an individual claiming to be excluded from a group due to the group not being willing to exclude another member based on their own unreasonable prejudice.

It's NOT prejudice. Try and get your head around this very fundamental fact. It's an instinctive and involuntary reaction. Imagine you were stabbed in the scrotum with a six inch blade. You would have an innate fear of knives from then on. So like that. Not prejudice. Fear. Fear of the penis.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/12/2021 16:22

"Scientifically" I think it is a bit more complex than that due to issues around being intersex.

Nope. Science manages that quite easily. And stop dragging a whole cohrt of eople who have, across social media, across the world, idividually and as groups, asked to be left out of this. They have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with being trans.

Ultimately the law supports people's right to identify their own gender.

What does that have to do with sex based services and protections?

VestofAbsurdity · 08/12/2021 16:24

You may disagree with supporting the rights of trans people, but the reality is that the majority of people support the rights of minority groups, and the law is also in support of equality based of gender identity.

No-one disagrees with supporting the rights of trans people. The law does not support gender identity and certainly not self-id, the law does, however, support the equality and rights of sex. The Equality Act specifically lists Rape Crisis Counselling and Centres as being places where TW, whether or not they have a GRC, can be excluded to ensure female only provision.

Furthermore trans people had equality of provision in the case the OP details, the only people who do not have equality of provision are females who require female only services.

TheKeatingFive · 08/12/2021 16:24

That is quite different from a trans woman attending a women's group, which I think is fine.

Why would that be ok?

The truth is you can't change sex. It's biologically impossible.

A male body will always be a male body (however they choose to identify) and always runs the risk of triggering a woman seeking a safe space to work through trauma.

Why should her needs be disregarded?

MothershipG · 08/12/2021 16:26

@Stompythedinosaur

So you do think that any male who identifies as a woman should be allowed into women's refuges, woman's prisons & woman's toilets despite the growing amount of evidence of the harm this causes to natal women?

Why are you so keen to sacrifice all women's hard won protections for bepenised people?

Eyesofdisarray · 08/12/2021 16:29

A man should not be in women's group; it's not appropriate in any way.
Why are they afraid to say " no"? Self ID isn't in yet .. is it?????? But this is what would happen if it was. The MRA/TRA must be laughing up their sleeves.
Trans people should have their own group- I think it's a specialised area.
And objecting to men in what should be a women's group is in No Way similar to homophobia
Why can't women see what's happening here? Take your "be kind" rainbow spectacles off ffs

VestofAbsurdity · 08/12/2021 16:30

Scientifically" I think it is a bit more complex than that due to issues around being intersex.

Don't drag intersex in to try and shore up your argument, people with DSD's are still either one or the other sex and have repeatedly asked not to be used by TRAs as some kind of gotcha, why don't you respect them enough to do that?

Ultimately the law supports people's right to identify their own gender.

Ultimately the law does not.

TracyLords · 08/12/2021 16:31

YABU: You shouldn't need an additional, exclusive group for biological women

Because the group should only be for biological women in the first place!!!!! Jeezey fucking peeps. It’s horrendous that women who are in crisis are having to go through this

TracyLords · 08/12/2021 16:33

And @IamSarah. I am so sorry that you have to go through this