Would you want capital punishment back?

[Mynameisnew]

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

@ManicPixie “But you say prison is very cushy…. They are like holiday camps!”

@Hertsgirl10

Why do people think prisons aren’t comfortable? Have you been to one? Do you know anyone that’s been to prison?

If you have someone to support you, (which lets be honest no matter what people do there’s always some idiot family member or friend that sticks by them) They do just fine even being sent very little money.

Has nobody ever seen these videos of prisoners and their cells? Packed up with goodies, Xbox/ PlayStations/phones and smoking weed.
That isn’t a rare thing at all.

The people that struggle are actually the ones on drugs, because they can’t afford to keep buying drugs and get bullied.

Whole system is a joke, nobody is getting rehabilitated or punished, It’s just a joke to these people, a lot of people make more money in prison that out of prison to the point they don’t give a shit if they end up there.

If you think that’s not going on then you’re being very naive. People can say luckily our criminal system is for this or that, but is it working? No it’s definitely not.

I have a friend whose boyfriend has been to prison. More than once. He said it's ok. No real hardship suffered. I once knew a young man through work who was inside and when he came out he was unrecognisable. For the first time in his life he'd had regular meals, showers, structure. If you're from a circle of society where your life has been chaotic, abusive and you live in an area where many of your friends are inside and you might be likely to meet up with them, it's not too bad. The view that it is isn't shared by everyone.

[quote DeclareThePenniesOnYourEyes]@Warmduscher did you ever watch ‘Secret Life’ with Matthew McFayden? That was about life in a halfway house for “rehabilitated” paedophiles. Opened my eyes. That’s another system that’s failing horribly. Beautiful and well done drama, but not for the faint hearted.[/quote]
No I haven’t but thanks for that recommendation.

I am well aware prisons are not comfortable because i work in rehabilitation

Few prisoners are in jail for murder/sex offences towards children (and I agree that many times sentences are too lenient)

Far more prisoners are in jail because they have made stupid mistakes, got caught in with the wrong people, they haven’t had the structured upbringing or security around them (very high numbers who have been in care/under social services growing up), haven’t got the money behind them for a good solicitor, have mh issues (often diagnosed while in prison), have learning difficulties, undiagnosed adhd, easily manipulated by others

Life isn’t easy for them in prison but for some sadly they become so institutionalised they struggle to manage outside of prison this is absolutely tragic as there is little support (but thankfully more support if they are diagnosed with a mh diagnosis)

Do you really thinking being locked up in a cell foe 23hrs a day even if you do have an Xbox isn’t damaging

Norway has one of the lowest rates of re-offending (about 20%) compared to the USA's ~75% (within 5 years). Thats probably because their prisons focus on rehabilitation.

In Norway prisoners get amenities such as a fridge and television, access to workshops and a kitchen. They have a focus on life after prison and there are no razor wire fences and guards with guns.

In North Dakota a prison tried a more scandinavian approach and noticed a massive decline in violence, and in the guards having to use violence.

In the UK 75% of offenders reoffend within 9 years, we have a lot to learn from Norway.

If you are advocating for worse conditions within prison you are advocating for ~50% more reoffending, more violence towards prison officers and the need for them to use more violence. So you literally don't care about the impact of those extra 50% of crimes on society, or the impact of that violence, and need to use violence, on the guards.

Literally all you care about is punishing and even in some cases torturing and killing people who are often either mentally ill or been brought up in shocking conditions already. You aren't the good guys in all of this. You are the psychopaths.

@OhWhyNot not really as damaging as a 6 year old having his head smashed against a wall till they die, no.

She will get these nice things and have her medical needs seen to, nothing that boy was able to have. Going to prison isn’t a deterrent either so what is?
Don’t do any capital punishment … Don’t put them in a cell with nothing to do…. They have human rights, blah blah blah. What should be done then?
Go to their cell and be happy knowing they will never miss a meal or an episode of corrie and realise that life in prison isn’t so bad, showing the next future child killer that it’s fine, life isn’t so bad in here, so go for it abuse that child.

@EnidFrighten

Basically the people on here calling for maltreatment in prison, death penalty etc are calling for an end to human rights.

Human rights mean that every single person is entitled to certain rights such as freedom from inhuman and degrading treatment. Everyone. If you start deciding certain people have done things that are terrible enough to justify breaching their human rights, you hand the government authority to torture or degrade anyone they like.

These rights were all put in place after WWII to prevent countries falling into tyranny and horror again. The people who put them in place weren't naive about how abusive and disgusting people can be. They put them in place because of that.

A lot of people on here seem to want to fixate on details of the Tustin and Hughes case in a really ghoulish, grisly way.

I agree with this. I used to wonder how in the past ordinary people could watch public hangings, witch burnings, gladiators...and think why were they so different from us that they could do this. Then cases like this, and years ago the Jamie Bulger case, which had braying mobs calling for the blood of ten year olds, shows how thin the veneer of civilisation is. Whip people up enough with a media frenzy of gory detail, and ordinary people are once again advocating torture and murder. Judgements need to be made in a clear sighted way against a context of human rights principles, and not on a tide of emotion, however upset we may be about a particular case.

Funny you should mention James bulger’s killers, it’s ended up amazing keeping that one alive hasn’t it? With all the child porn and constant changing his identity. And the rest 😂
Would definitely have been much cheaper and easier to put him down back then wouldn’t it?
But I guess what is most important is HIS human rights after all.

@LunarEclipseWinterSolstice

I'm going to say no because honestly death is too good, too kind and too easy for these scumbags. They need to suffer over time in stead.

Yes. I was going to say they same. Life in prison with no hope of release would be a far worse punishment.

[quote Hertsgirl10]@OhWhyNot not really as damaging as a 6 year old having his head smashed against a wall till they die, no.

She will get these nice things and have her medical needs seen to, nothing that boy was able to have. Going to prison isn’t a deterrent either so what is?
Don’t do any capital punishment … Don’t put them in a cell with nothing to do…. They have human rights, blah blah blah. What should be done then?
Go to their cell and be happy knowing they will never miss a meal or an episode of corrie and realise that life in prison isn’t so bad, showing the next future child killer that it’s fine, life isn’t so bad in here, so go for it abuse that child.[/quote]
Amazing how one comes along just to prove you right, @jaffacakesareepic.

@OhWhyNot

So what

What countries are you comparing us to. South America, US, Russia all have mush high violent crime rates than we do here l.
Prison is not a deterrent

The most successful rehabilitation is in countries that invest heavily in rehabilitation

People with ‘whole life’ tariffs can never be released, so there’s no point rehabilitating them.

@Bagelsandbrie

I don’t agree with the death penalty. I think it’s a step backwards morality wise but I do agree with more funding being put into the whole legal system and more prison spaces so we can give out more whole life sentences. I also think prison should be harder and harsher than it is. Why should Rose West be able to have a budgie and spend her days watching TV? Madness.

Tustin tried to commit suicide twice during custody in the trial and has tried a few times before; once throwing herself off a car park. Why should we give her what she wants (death)?

Agree. It’s too soft in prison.

Three cooked meals a day, heating, showers, visits and TV.

Lots of people focusing on Tustin and Hughes. Rightly or wrongly they're going to have a horrific time in prison. We've all seen their faces and the other prisoners and guards will know who they are.

Does anyone genuinely believe that the threat of a long prison sentence/death would actually stop any potential child abuser?

[quote Hertsgirl10]@OhWhyNot not really as damaging as a 6 year old having his head smashed against a wall till they die, no.

She will get these nice things and have her medical needs seen to, nothing that boy was able to have. Going to prison isn’t a deterrent either so what is?
Don’t do any capital punishment … Don’t put them in a cell with nothing to do…. They have human rights, blah blah blah. What should be done then?
Go to their cell and be happy knowing they will never miss a meal or an episode of corrie and realise that life in prison isn’t so bad, showing the next future child killer that it’s fine, life isn’t so bad in here, so go for it abuse that child.[/quote]
I don't even know where to start with this @hertsgirl10.

Prison serves multiple purposes: getting dangerous people off the streets, rehabilitating people to reduce risk of reoffending, providing a deterrent.

People shouldn't really need a deterrent to not abuse a child. Do you really mean the system should be set up so if there are people with children in their care who want to abuse them, but the only thing that stops them is the thought of some awful punishment?

The system should be set up so early intervention picks up on children who are at risk, before serious harm occurs.

The best way to do this would be to fund social services properly, reduce poverty, fund mental healthcare etc. That doesn't make for such good headlines though.

If you want to stop child abuse, put systems and processes in place to stop it before it gets to the prison stage. Mistreating them when they are in prison as revenge, or supposedly to stop others abusing, will not really stop child abuse.

If a child abuser is tortured will it stop other child abusers, probably not. It might make them hide the abuse more, or remove the child from society more, making it harder for the abuse to be picked up. That in no way helps future potential victims.

The thing is the things that can help cut down on child abuse would probably have a lot of people up in arms on here if they were suggested.

Mandated parenting classes when pregnant
No non-relatives (e.g. non parents) moving in to households with children without going through a similar assessment as foster carers or adoptive parents
Regular in-house assessments of parents by social workers where they view children's living conditions, interactions with parents etc (yearly maybe)
Children who are identified as being at risk being moved into parent child units where their parenting can be observed, corrected and the child is in a safe secure environment when that happens
Greater opportunities for respite for all parents not just those who are parents of severely disabled children
Many many more social workers, smaller workload for those social workers, more post natal visits by trained staff, more money invested in early years care, much more free and subsidised child care available

People with ‘whole life’ tariffs can never be released, so there’s no point rehabilitating them.

In the entire prison estate there’s a really small proportion on whole life tariffs. Decisions about rehabilitation have nothing to do with them.

The majority in prison are on short sentences and rehabilitation is the best way to reduce reoffending, which is my preferred outcome.

@EnidFrighten

I was answering the people that said that capital punishment isn’t a deterrent, I’m unfortunately very well aware of how the law and punishment works.

Definitely all of those things need funding and social workers need to stop looking at a clean and tidy house and deciding this means children aren’t being abused, for a start.

Either killing people is wrong or it isn’t. I think it is.

Albert Pierrepoint, the last hangman in Britain, wrote an auobiography in which he said that he didn’t believe that the threat of captal punishment had prevented even one murder being committed.

100% no. Why lower ourselves to such base behaviour? Taking another's life is an abomination. But I do think life should mean life, and would like to see tougher prison sentences.
I'd also like to see much better research into the human brain and what it is which causes such maladaptive behaviour of a perpetrator in the first place. A world of no crime would be a on the way to a utopia.

@hertsgirl10 ah, ok then! I think the Arthur case is a sad way of showing that the system actually does work in many cases, during lockdown the usual safeguards were not in place, families were stuck inside together more, the horrible result was increased violence of which this is just one example.

No, it's condemning the whole family to a lifetime of punishment too. It can't be undone, and it's medieval in attitude.
A life sentence should be just that. Life in prison with no possibility of release.

@Harriet1216

No, it's condemning the whole family to a lifetime of punishment too. It can't be undone, and it's medieval in attitude. A life sentence should be just that. Life in prison with no possibility of release.

The most dangerous people like Ian Brady etc are never released.

Life sentences might be handed out in a variety of other situations. Eg someone who murders an abusive husband. It's better to allow the system some discretion because there are a huge range of circumstances.

I read the wiki entry for Albert Pierrepoint and it was not an easy reading. How can we do this to other humans, not only the ones we execute but everyone involved in the job? It is barbaric and cannot believe it went on until relatively recent times such the the 50s.

"the death penalty for treason was abolished with the introduction of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998" basically yesterday.