Would you want capital punishment back?

[Mynameisnew]

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

I think people can do things so terrible, that their life is forfeit. So theoretically yes. I suppose the issue is how it’s applied and risk of false conviction. It’s never been a deterrent so I don’t buy that argument either for or against it. But Wayne couzens, little Arthur’s killers, paeodphiles who commit abhorrent abuse, serial killers….I just don’t see the point of keeping them alive 50 years in comfort.

@Ostagazuzulum

Who would be comfortable being an executioner.....

Precisely.

"The law of capital punishment falls with terrible weight upon the hangman and that to allow a man to follow such an occupation is doing him a deadly wrong…" So said Victorian executioner-turned-evangelist (and prominent campaigner for the abolition of the death penalty) James Berry. One only has to look at the case of Dr. Crippen’s executioner to see the truth in this. John Ellis suffered poor mental health after several years on the job. After a traumatic hanging in 1923 (he was forced to hang a woman who had passed out in terror, she then suffered a vaginal haemorrhage and lost a huge amount of blood, shocking onlookers) he didn’t last much longer in the job and took to heavy drinking and then the next spring, shot himself in the face.

He didn’t succeed in killing himself, but was given a suspended sentence for attempting suicide (which was a crime at the time). He later attempted suicide again and finally succeeded when he was just 57, leaving behind a wife, children and grandchildren.

*death penalty.

I suppose the answer to that @TheNinny would be to keep them alive but without any comforts, just the basics. Don't pander to any special requirements that they decide they need. Make them live out their lives in misery. Bellfield (local to me, hence my interest in his case), Couzens etc gave up their rights the minute they killed those women.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

I suppose the answer to that *@TheNinny* would be to keep them alive but without any comforts, just the basics. Don't pander to any special requirements that they decide they need. Make them live out their lives in misery. Bellfield (local to me, hence my interest in his case), Couzens etc gave up their rights the minute they killed those women.

People have already posted about the impact on executioners of carrying out their roles. I think it would be very unfair to expect prison officers to facilitate a life of misery and neglect of their charges. Its all very well advocating it from an armchair, but what sort of person would actually seek a job that involved seeing human beings, however 'evil' suffering daily, and bring instrumental in that? I'm sure there would be some, but probably not the sort of person who should actually be trusted in the role.

I'm not suggesting they are abused or neglected @5128gap, just that they only have the basics they need - somewhere to sleep and 3 meals a day. Perhaps they could earn small extras for good behaviour but they shouldn't be a right.

BTW, I notice you put evil inverted commas. How else would you describe Bellfield, Couzens etc?

Oh and there's a huge difference between an executioner putting someone to death and having to shove a plate of food through a hatch in a cell door 3 times a day.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

I'm not suggesting they are abused or neglected *@5128gap*, just that they only have the basics they need - somewhere to sleep and 3 meals a day. Perhaps they could earn small extras for good behaviour but they shouldn't be a right.

BTW, I notice you put evil inverted commas. How else would you describe Bellfield, Couzens etc?

I was referring to you saying they should live their lives in misery without any special requirements met. I put 'evil' in inverted commas because I don't really care for it as a term. People commit horrendous crime for a variety of reasons, illness, diminished responsibility, greed, depravity. They are not suddenly possessed by the devil. Using the cover all term 'evil' is a lazy way of lumping perpetrators together by their deeds, rather than their motivations; and understanding motivation is important to prevention.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Oh and there's a huge difference between an executioner putting someone to death and having to shove a plate of food through a hatch in a cell door 3 times a day.

Do you think that over the time of a long sentence no relationship develops between prisoners and their officers? That interactions are conducted in silence? Its really not the case. Officers and prisoners chat and interact, with many officers highly committed to the welfare and rehabilitation of prisoners. Its unfair to ask decent human beings to treat other people as caged animals to satisfy a thirst for revenge on the part of people who will never have to carry it out.

@5128gap

Yes that’s true enough. I have a good friend who is a prison officer, who is a thoroughly lovely man. I’d hate to think of him being given such a task. He would quit, as would other decent prison officers leaving only sadists staying on.

Considering how vulnerable a lot of prisoners are, that’s something we really shouldn’t allow to happen.

I’m not talking about your average prisoner, I’m talking about the likes of Bellfield, Couzens and anyone serving a whole life sentence as they will never be rehabilitated. Surely no prison officer would form any sort of relationship with scum like that? Why should prisoners like that have any more than the basic necessities?

And yes, those two are pure evil even if you don’t believe it exists.

I would be quite happy to be an executioner, but no way would I ever be a prison officer. Prison officers have a very difficult job and are forever dealing with violence. An executioner is just a public servant in the same way a doctor or social worker is - just a human being, trained to do a job which is necessary for society to function.

Obviously the pay needs to be appropriate, one of James Berry's complaints was that he was paid by the job and there weren't always enough customers. He advocated a fixed annual salary which seems sensible. Maybe a combination of the two, a decent salary (say 100K?) plus a couple of grand per person executed. Before Berry, the executioner used to be able to keep the condemned's clothing and personal effects which could be sold for additional income. I don't think this aspect is correct and think the personal property should be returned along with the corpse to the executed person's family.

I have a good friend who is a prison officer, who is a thoroughly lovely man. I’d hate to think of him being given such a task.

I think this is the important thing, prison officer and executioner are two completely different jobs. No way should a prison officer be expected to carry out an actual execution, that is a different skill set entirely. Just as in a hospital the porter who brings the patient to the operating theatre is a different person to the one who performs the surgery. The prison officers would be in charge while the person awaited execution, and obviously assist in forcing them to the place of execution if they resisted. Then their job done, the executioner could perform their art.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills.

I believe we should have the death sentence for anyone that kills a child

No, I was talking about the PP’s suggestion of making whole life prisoners’ lives a living misery, without any privileges, not capital punishment. I know that’s a different job (which I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone to do).

@MorningStarling

I would be quite happy to be an executioner, but no way would I ever be a prison officer. Prison officers have a very difficult job and are forever dealing with violence. An executioner is just a public servant in the same way a doctor or social worker is - just a human being, trained to do a job which is necessary for society to function.

Obviously the pay needs to be appropriate, one of James Berry's complaints was that he was paid by the job and there weren't always enough customers. He advocated a fixed annual salary which seems sensible. Maybe a combination of the two, a decent salary (say 100K?) plus a couple of grand per person executed. Before Berry, the executioner used to be able to keep the condemned's clothing and personal effects which could be sold for additional income. I don't think this aspect is correct and think the personal property should be returned along with the corpse to the executed person's family.

I have a good friend who is a prison officer, who is a thoroughly lovely man. I’d hate to think of him being given such a task.

I think this is the important thing, prison officer and executioner are two completely different jobs. No way should a prison officer be expected to carry out an actual execution, that is a different skill set entirely. Just as in a hospital the porter who brings the patient to the operating theatre is a different person to the one who performs the surgery. The prison officers would be in charge while the person awaited execution, and obviously assist in forcing them to the place of execution if they resisted. Then their job done, the executioner could perform their art.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills.

Execution as an art? What a very disturbing way to look at it.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science.

You think that's what we're objecting to? Lack of artistry?

I would be quite happy to be an executioner

….That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills.

Seek help, I beg you.

I once made the mistake of reading a book on the history of executions, the methods, the good and the bad. It has stayed with me. The number that go wrong are harrowing and the descriptives by those who witnessed them are just awful. So, no, I wouldn't ever want to see CP in a civilised society.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science.

Goodness, I didn't know that but now I do I'm going to start rooting for public hangings.

We definitely all need to have an opportunity to witness the 'art' of the hangman.

God almight There's some seriously stupid posts on this thread.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills.

Holy shit. I have no words.

Hi to all,

I just cannot belive what happened in Killamarsh when those Children & Pregnant Mum was Killed a few Months back and then on Socail Media about the Little Boy Arthur who was Killed its Absolutley Disgusting i cannot get my head around why People R so Nasty to Children.

Dolphin5005

No. I think some people deserve to die eg couzens/hindley etc but we shouldn’t bring back the death penalty. It costs a lot more money to kill a prisoner in the US than keeping them just locked up due to the expensive legal procedures and appeals etc. Plus there’s been too many miscarriages of justice even with dna etc. There should be longer sentencing though and life should mean life.

….That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills

Pop off to Saudi, China or the USA - I'm sure they would value your perspective.

That's what anti-CP people misunderstand. An execution is as much an art as a science. It's a job that most people couldn't do very well, and that's fine. Society works because people have different skills

Pop off to Saudi, China or the USA - I'm sure they would value your perspective.

I believe we should have the death sentence for anyone that kills a child

I bet you do, having read your admiration of Boris Johnson.

Most civilised people don't just stand on the sidelines baying 'hang them'.
Most civilised people want to see our energies employed lobbying for improved support for families, parents and children at risk by this government.
We want more investment in the public services that offer targeted intervention and care - social services, education, healthcare, police and emergency services.
Those are the measures that will save abused children from the perpetrators and offer a longer lasting solution to a big problem - far more effective that executing a child abuser/murderer.