Would you want capital punishment back?

[Mynameisnew]

There are people who do such vile things in this country and are jailed for a decade or two. Perhaps released for good behaviour a bit earlier.

Afaik CP was stopped amongst other reasons because there were a number of errors made and innocent people being convicted.

But these days with DNA proof or cases where it is on cctv /phone messages or has been admitted (thinking of Emma Tustin)

Would it not make a good deterrent? Even if one person is saved from being murdered...

I appreciate that in the USA people still commit murder, but they also have guns there which means a higher incidence of spur of the moment violence.

But a sustained campaign of abuse - would such an abuser as Tustin have been put off if CP was an option, even if very rarely used?

It's easy for me to say that I would be deterred, but I'm not a psychopathic and sadistic person so the issue is, it's hard to say if people like that would be put off such a crime. Perhaps it doesn't even enter their heads that it's wrong.

@Hertsgirl10

Funny you should mention James bulger’s killers, it’s ended up amazing keeping that one alive hasn’t it? With all the child porn and constant changing his identity. And the rest 😂 Would definitely have been much cheaper and easier to put him down back then wouldn’t it? But I guess what is most important is HIS human rights after all.

@hertsgirl10 your post has made me feel sick. Yeah, you’re right, we should have hanged Venables back in 1993. Nothing makes me feel warmer inside after a senseless child killing than killing another child for no reason. Especially a child so mentally and emotionally immature that he asked his mum if the ghost of “baby James” was watching them in court.

Yes, Venables has been convicted of viewing and distributing child pornography, probably because he’s hugely mentally ill. He probably always was, but after the show-trial put on for people like you, where the two defendants literally had to sit on boxes to see over the dock, Venables lost it so badly that:

“[After the trial] Venables was so haunted by guilt he began to imagine a baby James Bulger growing inside him as if he could make things right again by giving birth and new life to his victim.”

Imagine wanting to hang that little boy. Imagine wanting to hang any little boy, but that little boy?! He was (and probably is) clearly really unwell. You can’t justify the state-sanctioned murder of anyone, but definitely not that boy!

As for your language surrounding this- “put down”- get a fucking grip of yourself. No human, no matter what they’ve done, should be talked about in those terms. Everyone was a baby once, everyone has a story. Some people should be locked up for the rest of their lives both for themselves and society at large, but they’re still human. They still have human rights because they’re still human.

Have a think about where your priorities lie, because you come over pretty heartless from this post.

This booklet is really interesting and it gives some interesting data: archive.org/details/deathpenalty0000stea/page/12/mode/2up?view=theater

also shocked to read about David Lucas who was selling until very recently materials for execution for other countries

vwww.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/29/world.patrickbarkham

@DeclareThePenniesOnYourEyes, totally agree with your post.

On a positive note regarding David Lucas, his business was stopped by EU law which prohibits export of instrument of torture from its countries. Now that we are free, a shining business of Brexit Britain can be gallows and noose making on behalf of other regimes (but also for individuals, we are all for entrepreneurial initiative, aren't; we?). Yet another wonderful opportunity from Brexit.

@Hertsgirl10

Funny you should mention James bulger’s killers, it’s ended up amazing keeping that one alive hasn’t it? With all the child porn and constant changing his identity. And the rest 😂 Would definitely have been much cheaper and easier to put him down back then wouldn’t it? But I guess what is most important is HIS human rights after all.

Anyone who thinks a laughing emoji is appropriate here either lacks the most basic sense of respect and decency, or else the wit to engage in the debate.

Why isn’t he locked up in a mental institute is he’s probably so mentally ill? Ooh yea cos he’s been rehabilitated and free to harm many more children.

@Hertsgirl10

Funny you should mention James bulger’s killers, it’s ended up amazing keeping that one alive hasn’t it? With all the child porn and constant changing his identity. And the rest 😂
Would definitely have been much cheaper and easier to put him down back then wouldn’t it?
But I guess what is most important is HIS human rights after all.

He was 10 wasn't he? You are genuinely advocating killing a mentally disturbed 10 year old.

And somehow you think you are the better person in this, you, the person who thinks killing 10 year olds is somehow not wholly morally and ethically repugnant. Wow, you really are a delightful person. I'm genuinely shocked anyone thinks this is a defensible position to take, killing 10 year olds.

Why isn’t he locked up in a mental institute is he’s probably so mentally ill?

Because mental health and mental institutions are woefully underfunded in the UK which means people who need to go through that system are thrust into the prison system instead which helps neither them nor society.

The correct response is to vote for parties that advocate for, or campaign for better mental health facilities. Not kill 10 year olds.

He was 10 wasn't he? You are genuinely advocating killing a mentally disturbed 10 year old.

A 10 year old should never be killed, however now he is an adult and will clearly never change he should not be let out of prison again. I have no idea if he's in or out of prison at the moment but if he's out and he blows this new identity he shouldn't get another one. He's had more than enough chances.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

He was 10 wasn't he? You are genuinely advocating killing a mentally disturbed 10 year old.

A 10 year old should never be killed, however now he is an adult and will clearly never change he should not be let out of prison again. I have no idea if he's in or out of prison at the moment but if he's out and he blows this new identity he shouldn't get another one. He's had more than enough chances.

In which case he would be murdered. His new identity is as much to protect someone else from becoming a murderer as it is to protect Venables himself.

[quote jaffacakesareepic]@Hertsgirl10

Funny you should mention James bulger’s killers, it’s ended up amazing keeping that one alive hasn’t it? With all the child porn and constant changing his identity. And the rest 😂
Would definitely have been much cheaper and easier to put him down back then wouldn’t it?
But I guess what is most important is HIS human rights after all.

He was 10 wasn't he? You are genuinely advocating killing a mentally disturbed 10 year old.

And somehow you think you are the better person in this, you, the person who thinks killing 10 year olds is somehow not wholly morally and ethically repugnant. Wow, you really are a delightful person. I'm genuinely shocked anyone thinks this is a defensible position to take, killing 10 year olds.[/quote]
This. @jaffacakesareepic makes a great point- if you think that you’re better than anyone by advocating the death of 10yr olds, you’re pretty mentally ill yourself.

@Hertsgirl10

Why isn’t he locked up in a mental institute is he’s probably so mentally ill? Ooh yea cos he’s been rehabilitated and free to harm many more children.

And Robert Thompson, who has been rehabilitated and has not reoffended? You think he should have been 'put down' too? A child brutalised by the violence and molestation inflicted on him by his carers? So years of unspeakable child abuse, ending in his death at ten years old?

So because of underfunding he’s free to crack on? Yes people keep voting this for this party so nothing will get better.
But surely if he’s so mentally disturbed he shouldn’t be allowed to be free? I mean as a priority.

And again I was replying to people that was against capital punishment because of the cost of it, as in it would have be cheaper for him not to be constantly protected, nobody detected the sarcasm there.

"So because of underfunding he’s free to crack on? Yes people keep voting this for this party so nothing will get better.
But surely if he’s so mentally disturbed he shouldn’t be allowed to be free? I mean as a priority."

Could you try again please as I struggle to see the point you are trying to make here.

In which case he would be murdered. His new identity is as much to protect someone else from becoming a murderer as it is to protect Venables himself.

That's a good point but, if someone is that inclined to murder, maybe they would be better off the streets as well. I know it doesn't work like that so locking Venables up for life is the obvious answer. Some people cannot be rehabilitated and he's clearly one of them.

@NightmareSlashDelightful

Absolutely not.

There is evidence to suggest that certain criminal actions are made significantly worse where a country has capital punishment; especially child abuse and rape cases.

The perpetrators either go further than they otherwise would trying to cover up evidence because they know if they get caught they'll be put to death or they fall into the 'might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb' thought process.

So 100% no. I actually think capital punishment would lead to more children and women being murdered.

I agree.

There are other things to think about too, how would you feel as a juror knowing your decision would take someone's life? So would juries convict fewer people?

Would juries convict children? There have been, thankfully few, killers who are children but could you vote to impose a death penalty on a child?

Also as someone upthread said, death is an ending. The killers of Arthur will not be having a good time.

Tustin's cellmate is reported to have, "thrown her out of the cell". I hope they live long lives and eventually realise what they have done.

For the death penalty to be a deterrent people have to think they will be caught.

@FelinaDaHousecat

"So because of underfunding he’s free to crack on? Yes people keep voting this for this party so nothing will get better. But surely if he’s so mentally disturbed he shouldn’t be allowed to be free? I mean as a priority."

Could you try again please as I struggle to see the point you are trying to make here.

@FelinaDaHousecat

I wasn’t making a point, I was replying to someone that was making these points.

I think that CP is wrong but when I read about cases like little Arthur, I start to waver and think that we should have an eye for an eye sort of system even though adults being tortured can't be made equal to a vulnerable person like a child being tortured. CP is a quick ending and in an ideal world, the perpetrators of crime should be thinking about their victims pain and feeling remorse.

On the other hand I know someone who has spent a lot of time in prison (for non violent crimes so wouldn't face CP ) and they last committed a crime 20 years ago. It's a difficult task - how do you balance the people who do change with the ones who are going to reoffend the moment they are released like Pitchfork?

Hertsgirl10 prison has never been a deferent

Do you think a rapist thinks oh better not rape that women tonight as I might get caught and go to prison

Do you think someone who inflicts pain on the most vulnerable in our society stops to think oh better not I may have to go to prison

Prison takes away your right to make choices. You don’t choose when you eat when you shower when you can talk to family. What we could today in prison is try our best so people don’t repeat the crimes which is better for society, stops other people getting hurt.

Some people are beyond rehabilitation (I would include all child sex offenders) but the majority I believe can be

And while someone may get three cooked meals a day don’t kid yourself into thinking that they won’t live in fear or life will be pleasant for them they will be protected as we shouldn’t have vigilante rule in prison m. There is a hierarchy and at the bottom are those that harm children.

Should the child that has been bought up in care, never really known love and stability for caught up and taken advantage of not be given the chance to lead a good honest and happy life or was their life mapped out from them at the start because for whatever reason their parents couldn’t cope

No. It's not a deterrent. Anyone sadistic and narcissistic enough will think they will never get caught and do it anyway. I think some killers are so detached from reality that it wouldn't really cross their mind.

All it does us run the risk of someone innocent dying for a crime they didn't commit. Then what would you do with the person who ran the investigation, pressed the button etc? The justice system still gets it wrong, despite advance in forensic science. I think it will actually create more caution in convicting someone of a crime if CP is the punishment. I wouldn't want to be on a jury and play a part in sentencing someone to death.

I think death is almost the easy way out anyway. Yes we pay taxes to keep them alive, but it gives them a very long time to suffer with their conscience if they have one, or feel hard done by if they are the sort of person who doesn't.

There should always be a case that makes you stop, think, and re-evaluate your stance of issues like capital punishment, but I haven't read anything so far that makes me want to support it.
I find the revenge fantasies to be nearly as disturbing as the original crimes. I have a problem with people wishing harm on those convicted - especially if you passively accept that a percentage of innocent people will be among them.

IMO, cases like this should make us want to strengthen safeguarding and prevention.

There should always be a case that makes you stop, think, and re-evaluate your stance of issues like capital punishment

Hard cases make bad laws.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

He was 10 wasn't he? You are genuinely advocating killing a mentally disturbed 10 year old.

A 10 year old should never be killed, however now he is an adult and will clearly never change he should not be let out of prison again. I have no idea if he's in or out of prison at the moment but if he's out and he blows this new identity he shouldn't get another one. He's had more than enough chances.

You seem to be suggesting that he should be torn apart in the street by a mob. That's what would happen if he was not protected in any way.

Would that be a good kind of murder, whereas he committed a bad kind of murder? If it was the good kind of murder, what if they picked on the wrong person? Would that make it the bad kind of murder?

We protect people from brutality, even when they are brutal themselves, because we are a civilised society and failing to do so harms everyone.

@DrSbaitso

There should always be a case that makes you stop, think, and re-evaluate your stance of issues like capital punishment

Hard cases make bad laws.

You've misunderstood my post. I'm happy not to have my beliefs set in stone. They need to be re-evaluated once in a while, to absorb new info and keep them up to date and fit for purpose.

You seem to be suggesting that he should be torn apart in the street by a mob. That's what would happen if he was not protected in any way.

Aah Mumsnet, the place where words are to suit.

Im not advocating anything other than Venables be locked up for life. Some prisoners cannot be rehabilitated and he is clearly one of them.

If unfortunately he has to be let out of prison then I don’t understand why the taxpayer has to fund yet another new identity if he’s too stupid or too arrogant to keep his original identity secret.