AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

@AudacityBaby

We know everything is done to care for your child. It’s not some kind of weird fact of life that only parents have discovered - we can imagine the need to care for something that is fully dependant on you. We’re childless, not sociopathic.

What it isn’t is our job. I am not co-parenting with you. I did not sign up to join in with your family and make it possible for you to stay at home with your children. To the extent that it’s not possible for you to do that then you’ll have to figure something out.

(She says, about to work her 7th consecutive Christmas because her employer will force childless staff to do just that.)

This.

I'm lucky, we don't have to work in the office over Christmas - we WFH. But I have noticed how our unit's required duties on some Saturdays throughout the year tend always to be staffed by those of us without children. It's done mostly on a volunteer basis with a rota of extra work - Saturdays and normal working week days, so the total amount of time people do s equal - but the parents in the unit are the ones who never volunteer for the Saturday work.

@Mfsf

I know my team personally , we have each other’s backs apart from the odd occasion where we have a junior .. I’ve never been in a situation where a person workout kids wanted the same time off as a colleague and we close all main holidays so these are not a issue . Being a good manager or team leader is not treating everyone the same , it’s doing it fairly , I also gave a big chunk of paid leave to someone doing ivf recently as a example and made sure her leave was available on top of that despite not having to do it . Takes time to make people realise equality first mean we all need the same

Now you are conflating/confusing two separate things.

If your team is happy to defer to those with specific issues and give up leave/switch leave then that's fine.

This threads focus/purpose for set up was specifically to address the question of if it's fair that parents be given preferential treatment.

If I was forced to work days to facilitate other on an ongoing basis without any reciprocation, I'd simply announced I'm a parent and would insist on having the preferential treatment. If I was challenged on this, I'd go so legal on them they'd back down (or change policy)

It's such a tough subject isn't it as I know lots of parents really have little choice but to try and get certain times off for childcare, but equally it's not fair for childfree people to never be able to have premium times off themselves - thinking of Christmas, Easter and August BH really.

I don't have any children yet so I do try and be considerate where I can - for instance, I don't tend to book off Christmas Eve if I don't need to, even though it would be nice.

Quite honestly though, all the problems I have seen re quibbling over holiday time has been between parents, not between a parent and a childfree person.

In one workplace, there were only 2 people with school-aged children and one of them would come in with their holiday dates for the whole year on Jan 1st every year. Always included every half term, Easter, Christmas week, etc. It used to drive the other parent mad and management wouldn't handle it beyond saying that he had submitted his dates first so what could they do?

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague

Married to a teacher. You never get time off together otherwise.

@PurpleDaisies

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague

Married to a teacher. You never get time off together otherwise.

It’s irrelevant - an employee has as much right to time off work during the school holidays as any employee. No one has to give a reason

Yep, unfortunately there’s no such thing as discrimination against non-parents as it’s not a protected characteristic. Neither is parent but there’s a strong indirect discrimination argument that if you don’t favour parents you’re discriminating against women on the basis of sex. Someone referred to a successful employment tribunal case earlier in the thread, brought on that basis. My employer is really alert to that possibility, knows that non-parents can’t bring legal challenges, and so uses them as old reliables to do all the stuff parents don’t fancy doing.

Yes it’s a management problem and yes I’m trying to leave. But there are people at my work and on this thread with serious levels of entitlement and I also think that needs to be pointed out. ”Bad management” is just a way of shifting focus from bad behaviour, and propagating the notion that childless people need to be kind, put up and shut up.

Another reflection I had… whenever there’s a thread where a parent has ended up doing unilateral one-way favours for another, there’s a categorical response from MN that she’s dealing with a CF, nobody is entitled to have a stranger help with their kids etc etc. Then you get threads like these, where it’s clear that actually, there is an entitlement to have strangers help with your kids. It just only falls on childless people. Parents mustn’t be burdened by other parents needing childcare, but childless people? Well it’s their role in life!

It’s irrelevant - an employee has as much right to time off work during the school holidays as any employee. No one has to give a reason

@Parker231 did you miss what question I was answering?

@LittleMysSister

It's such a tough subject isn't it as I know lots of parents really have little choice but to try and get certain times off for childcare, but equally it's not fair for childfree people to never be able to have premium times off themselves - thinking of Christmas, Easter and August BH really.

I don't have any children yet so I do try and be considerate where I can - for instance, I don't tend to book off Christmas Eve if I don't need to, even though it would be nice.

Quite honestly though, all the problems I have seen re quibbling over holiday time has been between parents, not between a parent and a childfree person.

In one workplace, there were only 2 people with school-aged children and one of them would come in with their holiday dates for the whole year on Jan 1st every year. Always included every half term, Easter, Christmas week, etc. It used to drive the other parent mad and management wouldn't handle it beyond saying that he had submitted his dates first so what could they do?

This is the sort of attitude that makes it work.

Parents don't deserve first dibs, but parents need to be conscientious of non parents, and just as this poster has said they're conscientious of parents and their needs.

It's got to be give and take on both sides, but no single person should have priority and we all need to respect any one can take time off for any reason they like.

I know there will be exceptions. but Christmas Day would have been the easiest day of the year for childcare for me. My partner would be off, my parents, in-laws, aunties and uncles, even friends would have looked after our children.

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague

It's a bit of a lack of imagination to ask this question ... There are loads of obvious reasons.

Main one is that school summer holidays are quite long and cover the nicest months of the year. Same at Easter. And some things I like to do, only happen in the summer or at Easter. And so on.

And not all teachers have children, but all teachers can only take holidays outside of teaching terms.

It may depend on the job, but even before I had kids I made it clear that I wouldn't work Christmas day and boxing day, but I was more than happy to do Christmas Eve and New year's Eve. Luckily it was a job with loads of youngsters who would rather new year's eve off!
(I am now self employed, so don't have to work any hours I don't want and luckily my job is term time.)
My partner however is military and has missed 2 of our kids Christmases, and many before, but before kids, we were happy for the dads with kids to get the Xmas leave. As much as he would have also loved to be home for Christmas, we would rather the kids got their dads home. So I lean to yes, parents should get preferential treatment, for Christmas at least (but I say that for the kids, not the grown ups)

So I lean to yes, parents should get preferential treatment, for Christmas at least (but I say that for the kids, not the grown ups)

What if people never go on to have their own children? Do they get the pleasure of working Christmas Day forever? That’s an extra kick in the teeth when you wanted them but couldn’t have them.

@PurpleDaisies that certainly wasn't the tone of my reply.
That said, I can't think of many jobs, that someone who do for their whole life, that would require Xmas day working, except for parts of the armed forces, police and NHS, which people go into knowing that is one of the downsides of the job. (Still sucks I know) I was simply talking about my personal experience in one of the industries that does, which, even without kids I managed to choose not to work Xmas, by working other days that a lot of people wanted off, but I wasnt bothered about.
And of our experience with the military, another job that goes all round. Like I said our thoughts on the matter were for the kids not the grown ups.
If you don't want to work on Christmas, tell your boss so when you sign your contract.

But I have noticed how our unit's required duties on some Saturdays throughout the year tend always to be staffed by those of us without children. It's done mostly on a volunteer basis with a rota of extra work - Saturdays and normal working week days, so the total amount of time people do s equal - but the parents in the unit are the ones whonevervolunteer for the Saturday work.

Presumably no one has to volunteer if it's errrr voluntary?

Presumably no one has to volunteer if it's errrr voluntary?

The work is not voluntary, as I said in my post above, these are required duties.

So the person who organises these events first of all asks for volunteers to do the Saturday work. Parents rarely offer, while those without children do. The parents tend to rely on this, and feel they're doing their "fair" share by doing these duties when they fall on an ordinary week day working day.

But it's not actually fair, and we've had to start to record how many Saturdays everyone is responsible for.

I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that me and my other mum friends from a playgroup are all in the same situation where most jobs are completely out of the question because of the problem of finding childcare over school hols. The kind of level of salary we're all in means we couldn't afford long bouts of sending kids to holiday clubs too. Some people I know we're lucky to have their part time working request agreed but others not. If this pattern is the same all over the UK then that's a lot of women out of the workforce or in stagnant jobs until their children are grown. I think Christmas should definitely be shared, I don't know what the solution is. I'm guessing they have a good system in some Scandinavian country!

It's not a personal choice whether to have children, like deciding whether to have a conservatory done. We are biologically determined to do this, just like as if we were aardvarks or peacocks. We're animals!

You must set your own personal bar extremely low as to how you function and exercise agency as a human.

I presume that, if your DH/DP were off having affairs and going to prostitutes all the time, you would be totally understanding about that? What about if your neighbour walked around naked in the street and pooed on your doorstep each morning, like a cat?

We're all just base animals following our biological impulses, right? No capacity, agency or responsibility to use our immensely superior human brains to function on a higher level than (other) animals and make conscious decisions?

[quote CateJW]@PurpleDaisies that certainly wasn't the tone of my reply.
That said, I can't think of many jobs, that someone who do for their whole life, that would require Xmas day working, except for parts of the armed forces, police and NHS, which people go into knowing that is one of the downsides of the job. (Still sucks I know) I was simply talking about my personal experience in one of the industries that does, which, even without kids I managed to choose not to work Xmas, by working other days that a lot of people wanted off, but I wasnt bothered about.
And of our experience with the military, another job that goes all round. Like I said our thoughts on the matter were for the kids not the grown ups.
If you don't want to work on Christmas, tell your boss so when you sign your contract.[/quote]
You weren’t talking about people volunteering. I was always happy to work my fair share of Christmases. You were taking about parents getting preferential treatment which means in practice, non parents end up working other people’s fair share as well.

I've said YABU for being so inflexible yourself, but YANBU if your employer and colleagues are equally inflexible.
People's particular circumstances should be taken into account and any hard and fast rule - like parents first, or first come first served - doesn't do that. That, of course, is v.difficult in practice, if everyone wants the same thing. I do see parents wanting a summer holiday with their children as a pretty high priority. And FCFS seems a particularly bad rule, except as a tie breaker.
Maybe if you got your preference last time, you should get less priority this time and vice versa. But nothing can satisfy everyone nor even be fair when a scarce resource is really overloaded.

Ultimately it is a nightmare for the employer to decide. As with customers, to keep in favour you have to please people all the time, but it only takes once to lose them. Fairness is almost illegal these days, as deciding against anyone with protected status could cost the employer a lot. Though parents are low in the protection hierarchy, mums could probably sue, if a single man got priority.

@KaycePollard

Presumably no one has to volunteer if it's errrr voluntary?

The work is not voluntary, as I said in my post above, these are required duties.

So the person who organises these events first of all asks for volunteers to do the Saturday work. Parents rarely offer, while those without children do. The parents tend to rely on this, and feel they're doing their "fair" share by doing these duties when they fall on an ordinary week day working day.

But it's not actually fair, and we've had to start to record how many Saturdays everyone is responsible for.

Or others stop volunteering and insist on a rota or something. If people are offering it seems odd to be annoyed, I mean I wouldn't fancy trying to secure childcare at a weekend unless necessary and with notice. The longer people go on putting their hand up the longer it won't be done fairly.

I don't understand why the claims that parents should always get priority, because of need, only applies to annual leave? Why don't we extend it to other areas too and make it clear that we believe non-parents should have fewer rights?

Order childfree people to get off a full bus and wait for the next one, because a parent needs to make that journey at that time? Make non-parents move their cars from full car-parks when a parent needs to park there for school/child-related purposes? Let parents (whether out with their kids or not) permanently jump the queues on the supermarket, so that childfree people are only finally allowed to pay for their shopping and get on with their day once every single parent in the shop has finished, because their lives are more important as they have children?

Yes, I know it's tough for us when we have to make sacrifices and juggle childcare - but we all knew that would be an issue before we decided to have children.

There are plenty of jobs out there where you can either work term-time only or find an employer that shuts down completely on the bank holidays. You wouldn't take a job working the night shift if your circumstances prevented you from being asleep in the daytime. You wouldn't consider a job that looked otherwise perfect but which was based 300 miles from where you live (unless moving was an option).

Nobody is saying that parents shouldn't work at all - just that the family has to consider the children's needs (and maybe preferences too) when looking for suitable jobs. Of course choosing to have children will limit you and your life choices - everybody knows this. Parenthood is wonderful, but like most good things in life, there is also a cost.

As for people saying that this almost always falls on mothers, it is the fathers of their children who also need to jointly step up, make sacrifices, pay for childcare and find the elusive solutions to ensure their joint children are appropriately cared for - it isn't incumbent on some random person who happens to work for the same employer as you.

As 'Linda' put it so well upthread, for the kind of parents who aren't team players and only ever care about what suits them and their children, it's not just a case of asking childfree people to let the parents go first and you take the second turn - there will always be somebody who believes themselves to be more deserving than you, so your turn will never come at all.

It just isn't good enough to lay claim to all of the best/popular days - even a quarter of the whole year - telling childfree colleagues that they can then choose from the leftover days and believing that to be fair. It's a bit like when everybody caught in a traffic jam curses all of the other 'selfish' drivers for 'deciding to travel' at the exact same time as they need to be on the road.

@Merlin3189 It wouldn’t need to be a single man. A single woman would be sufficient. The parent would just need to argue indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women typically being primary carers) and job done. It seems it’s already been done (a previous poster has mentioned a successful employment tribunal case on this basis).

Parents aren’t low in the protection hierarchy. Not compared to those without kids, anyway, who have no protection whatsoever despite also being women.

(This is one of the reasons I don’t like this being described as a feminist issue. It is, obviously, but it involves placing one class of women above another, and that sits badly with me.)