AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

OP, how old is your child/children?
Wondering if they are still baby age?

As a manager you have to make sure it is fair - never any preference given for people with children. I understand the difficulties as a parent obviously but it was my choice ultimately to have a child. Before I had a child I used to work Christmas usually as I didn't mind but I would never expect anyone else to do that.

I’m a new parent and would never feel more entitled to time off than someone without children. It frustrates me every year when christmas comes around at work that those with children are given preferential treatment and are given Christmas Eve automatically so those with no kids don’t get a look in. Just because u don’t have children doesn’t mean u don’t want Christmas Eve off to spend with family, do some last minute shopping or start Christmas Day preparations! 🤬😠

Bit different subject but i used to work in a company that used a sickness system that when sick days accumulated they would take the necessary disciplinary action..one girl i knew with a child used to be off sick all the time... she said she'd never been in trouble for it or had a disciplinary or anything because she just told them its her child thats sick and not her so they never said anything about it

I usually take it in turns - so if I have Christmas eve off one year I let someone else have it the next.

This year I just booked it early.

@KwestTurkey

So you think 80% of the population should not have had children to enable their colleagues to go on holiday?

I think it's not up to your colleagues to work every Christmas and summer because of your childcare issues yes.

Offering is great, not even bothered about people asking. But I don't think employers should automatically give priority year in year out no and I don't think any childfree colleague should feel pressured to cancel or swap any holidays they have booked if it clashes with a parents childcare nor should they feel pressured to work every Christmas.

This is an issue for the employer not the employee. The employer has to agree the holiday dates and should be doing it fairly. I work in education but not on a term time only contract and I don't get all the holidays off. Our managers have to make sure there is cover and people have to sort out childcare if they need it.

@Mfsf you are very lucky you've not been pulled in for disciplinary actions because what you are doing is discriminatory.
If I worked for you I'd have you before HR and if they didn't stop you in front of an employment tribunal so fast your head would spin.

I don't think parents have should have preferential treatment regarding school holidays.

However, as a single parent, this is why I chose to work in education and to work term time only. I get paid less than my colleagues who work full time, but I don't have to worry about child care in the school holidays.

I say this as someone very senior in an office setting. You are taking the pi$$

[quote wannabeamummysobad]@Mfsf you are very lucky you've not been pulled in for disciplinary actions because what you are doing is discriminatory.
If I worked for you I'd have you before HR and if they didn't stop you in front of an employment tribunal so fast your head would spin.[/quote]
I also think it's wrong, but how is it discriminatory? Which protected categories does it disadvantage to always let parents have school holidays?

DoItAfraid Do you have contracted hours that you have to work? What happens if there is a meeting that you can’t attend because of the school run - who covers?

I my work we have core hours that we need to be in the office - these haven’t changed with working from home. So in my case people are breaching their contract by doing the school run.

I also start work at 7am - but I don’t leave for half an hour in the middle of my core hours.

If your work is flexible and allows this great - but in my work it isn’t actually allowed. I am therefore left covering meetings because half the team disappears

@Mellowyellow222

DoItAfraid Do you have contracted hours that you have to work? What happens if there is a meeting that you can’t attend because of the school run - who covers?

I my work we have core hours that we need to be in the office - these haven’t changed with working from home. So in my case people are breaching their contract by doing the school run.

I also start work at 7am - but I don’t leave for half an hour in the middle of my core hours.

If your work is flexible and allows this great - but in my work it isn’t actually allowed. I am therefore left covering meetings because half the team disappears

If its not allowed where you are and people are still doing it, why isn't management doing something about it?

@LivinginWFHlimbo pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics/classes. Parenthood is not.
You can't fire someone for being pregnant as pregnancy is a protected class however once you return from maternity leave that class no longer exists.
As such in giving preferential treatment to those with childcare responsibilities you are discriminating against those without.

Haven't RTFT bit what I hate is other parents hogging the holidays. Like the second the calendar is open for the hols they've booked their time off. Usually the whole holidays on half pay and they've been working at the place for 20 years so expect it. I ensure I try every 2nd Christmas but usually I miss out (I have 2 kids) .

How is this discrimination? Mostly is never a issue as people don’t want school holidays unless they have kids anyway . We don’t work Christmas or new year anyway as it’s closed so …..
or is it the part I say I will take into account those who worked during lockdown ? We all worked from home , this specific person had school aged kids like most of her colleagues , she choose to not want to work while leaving the rest of us short staffed fir months . So yes as a team leader I will for sure reward hard work and not reward laziness or lack of interest , I’m sure if you where one of the people in a team that worked through lock down non stop you would feel cheated if you where not put first .

@LivinginWFHlimbo sorry that sent too soon.

These are the 9 protected classes according to the equality act : age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation

Not having appropriate childcare is a personal problem that can can taken into consideration but not at the expense of other people. I.e if your manager sympathises with your not having childcare that manager can swap shifts with you/take on your role responsibilities etc. It's not for your colleagues to pick up the proverbial slack. Your manager can't force someone without your issues/problems to cover for you all the time.

[quote wannabeamummysobad]@LivinginWFHlimbo pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics/classes. Parenthood is not.
You can't fire someone for being pregnant as pregnancy is a protected class however once you return from maternity leave that class no longer exists.
As such in giving preferential treatment to those with childcare responsibilities you are discriminating against those without.[/quote]
That's not how it works. You're right that parents are no longer protected, but so are non-parents. 'Discrimination' doesn't mean 'not treating everyone the same' it means 'disadvantaging those in a protected class'. If you're not in a protected class you can't be discriminated against, and non-parents isn't a protected class.

Again, I think it's wrong and poor management. But that doesn't make it discrimination.

[quote wannabeamummysobad]@LivinginWFHlimbo sorry that sent too soon.

These are the 9 protected classes according to the equality act : age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation

Not having appropriate childcare is a personal problem that can can taken into consideration but not at the expense of other people. I.e if your manager sympathises with your not having childcare that manager can swap shifts with you/take on your role responsibilities etc. It's not for your colleagues to pick up the proverbial slack. Your manager can't force someone without your issues/problems to cover for you all the time.[/quote]
@Mfsf FYI

@KwestTurkey

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague ;)

Well it's still summer, it's still a nice time of year to do other things, go on holiday yourself, see friends, enjoy the only bit of sun we'll get for the year or whatever.. I don't think childfree people should be unable to take any time off between the months of July and September. That was how it always was though in my workplace, just a given that you wouldn't be allowed any time off during that time of year (or any other school holiday), nevermind the occasion.

Obv they're entitled to summer, but if I hadn't got kids I'd be going away as much as possible in September to avoid the kids and the ridiculous price hike.

First come first served with reasonable consideration imo. DHs colleague puts in a years worth of AL request on Jan 1st for the whole school year. Only one off at a time. Its hard to beat and we end up trying to find a week here and there. This year DH will be sent to work with a list of dates to book

Not having appropriate childcare is a personal problem that can can taken into consideration but not at the expense of other people. I.e if your manager sympathises with your not having childcare that manager can swap shifts with you/take on your role responsibilities etc. It's not for your colleagues to pick up the proverbial slack. Your manager can't force someone without your issues/problems to cover for you all the time.

But this is just your opinion of how things should work. I actually agree with you that that's how it should work, but that isn't the law. It isn't discrimination if your manager denies you leave at a specific time because they give it to colleagues with children any more than it is if they deny you leave at a specific time for any other reason.

@LivinginWFHlimbo the dictionary definition of discrimination "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people"

Disadvantaging those without child-caring responsibilities at the expense of/for the benefit of those with child caring responsibilities is textbook discrimination.

[quote wannabeamummysobad]@LivinginWFHlimbo the dictionary definition of discrimination "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people"

Disadvantaging those without child-caring responsibilities at the expense of/for the benefit of those with child caring responsibilities is textbook discrimination.

[/quote]
But it isn't discrimination that you can cite in an employment tribunal - you can see that, clearly, you posted the list of protected categories just now!

Again, I agree with you it's wrong and unfair, I was just pointing out that there wouldn't be a legal case to bring before an employment tribunal as another poster claimed.

It might constitute bullying/a hostile work environment - especially if there's only one person without children and so they bear the brunt of the policy - but it isn't the basis of a discrimination case.

I know my team personally , we have each other’s backs apart from the odd occasion where we have a junior .. I’ve never been in a situation where a person workout kids wanted the same time off as a colleague and we close all main holidays so these are not a issue . Being a good manager or team leader is not treating everyone the same , it’s doing it fairly , I also gave a big chunk of paid leave to someone doing ivf recently as a example and made sure her leave was available on top of that despite not having to do it . Takes time to make people realise equality first mean we all need the same

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague

In some industries, the work is seasonal, and at the busy times of year, staff are not allowed to take annual leave at all!

I worked for reinsurance brokers for instance, and I was told at the interview, that if I liked going skiing, it was not the place to work, as nobody was allowed time off in the winter - that is the renewals season!

Accountancy is another! DH works flat out from January to mid August - he has always had to take the last 2 weeks of August off, as that was his slackest time of year. January is tax returns, April 5th is the tax year end, and then there are all the December and March year end accounts and tax returns to do....He has other deadlines in October, with particular clients. The last few years, we have gone in the first half of September and every time, he gets back and complains that he should never have gone in September, because he's got too much to do, in not enough time for the end of October. Likewise, where DS works, the audit staff are not allowed to go on holiday between January and July - and these are usually young people in their 20s.

So if an employer gives Christmas and New Year off to parents (at the expense of non-parents) because its a special time of year for children, when does this privilege stop? When the child is 5? 10? 15? Never, because the child is alway the parent's child?
And once a precedence has been set of that parent never needs to work at Christmas because someone else will, how do the employers and/or non-parents claim back the right for the employee to work and someone else get the chance to spend Christmas with their loved ones?