AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

@whumpthereitis

With the exception of those living in countries where they have no reproductive rights, yes, it absolutely is a choice.

No, I don’t understand the experience of a parent (and nor do I wish to), but I’m not obliged to. Your time is not more important than mine. Of course you may consider it to be, but that does not mean that I am responsible for accommodating you. All those things above you listed are issues for you to resolve, not me, and not anyone else who is childfree.

Also, my parents did work and sometimes they did indeed miss things. It was normal for me (actually I think it was, and us, normal for most children) and at no point do I ever recall feeling hard done by.

To give you another side of things - as a parent when you attend any school event you see your child looking for you in the crowd. I’m sure you did this as a child too. But the look your child gives you when they see you is something that just can’t be described with words - that’s why I make sure I’m there when I can be.

Don’t get me wrong - there are often meetings I can’t move, deadlines that I need to meet and I can’t be there - and that’s where it’s just one of those things

My team know I’m more than there for them too.

But if you have a parent who does both jobs well - being a parent and a great team player - then just don’t bereate them for the former. Being a parent is a full time job too - more hours than a salaried role!

They are after all just juggling an extra ball or few more than you.

[quote Willyoujustbequiet]@KosherDill

What part of no support network did you not understand? My family are dead, I live rurally with no childcare availablen on Christmas day and dc are disabled so require far more care. I couldn't conjure up people/services that don't exist.

If there is physically no one available to care for dependants what would you suggest I should have done? Of course parents/carers should take priority in these circumstances.

You are lucky you've never been in such a position[/quote]
That's a very specific circumstance which would require a discussion with your manager. It is very different to the 'think of the kids, it's a magical time' entitlement, which often (but not always) comes from people who have another adult who could look after the kids over Christmas, so it had bigger all to do with childcare and is about all wanting to be off

@AudacityBaby

We know everything is done to care for your child. It’s not some kind of weird fact of life that only parents have discovered - we can imagine the need to care for something that is fully dependant on you. We’re childless, not sociopathic.

What it isn’t is our job. I am not co-parenting with you. I did not sign up to join in with your family and make it possible for you to stay at home with your children. To the extent that it’s not possible for you to do that then you’ll have to figure something out.

(She says, about to work her 7th consecutive Christmas because her employer will force childless staff to do just that.)

You do understand that childminders often have christmasses off too? Schools close a decent week or so prior to Christmas. What do you expect parents to do with their children in this period?

Nobody is berating parents who are great team players. For the love of all that’s holy… we’re berating parents who insist that they can never work XYZ because they’re parents, and someone else will have to do it. That’s not a great team player. If that’s not you then we’re not talking about you. But as you’re here going on and on about the magic of nativities and never missing Christmas then I’m guessing it is you and you may not be the great team player you think you are.

Honestly I’m going to have to stop now. This thread is giving me a hernia.

What it isn’t is our job. I am not co-parenting with you. I did not sign up to join in with your family and make it possible for you to stay at home with your children. To the extent that it’s not possible for you to do that then you’ll have to figure something out

Wonderfully put. 👏 👏 👏

@Dogmummy1980 I don’t care. It has nothing to do with me.

(Did you miss the part where I said I’d be working my 7th consecutive Xmas due to this sort of thing? That’s what I end up doing. But I seriously resent it, because your lack of childminder or what have you has nothing to do with me as I am not your child’s parent!)

I'm a parent and I agree with you.

@AudacityBaby

Nobody is berating parents who are great team players. For the love of all that’s holy… we’re berating parents who insist that they can never work XYZ because they’re parents, and someone else will have to do it. That’s not a great team player. If that’s not you then we’re not talking about you. But as you’re here going on and on about the magic of nativities and never missing Christmas then I’m guessing it is you and you may not be the great team player you think you are.

Honestly I’m going to have to stop now. This thread is giving me a hernia.

Agree not everyone is a great team player who does it all - but also for all parents out there whose kids are off for vast periods during the school year for various reasons that often it’s just a case of who the f is going to actually be home with them. That’s often the main thing here. I mean really what is expected to be done with say a 5 year old off school when childminders/out of school clubs are closed?

To give you another side of things - as a parent when you attend any school event you see your child looking for you in the crowd. I’m sure you did this as a child too. But the look your child gives you when they see you is something that just can’t be described with words - that’s why I make sure I’m there when I can be

Neither of my parents ever attended a nativity play of mine. That never bothered me in the slightest. I knew I was loved. I knew they didn’t attend because of work commitments, not because they didn’t care. And it didn’t bother me, nor did it scar me for life. It taught me a valuable lesson in fact, ie that the world doesn’t revolve around me, that somethings have to be prioritised above others and that there’s more to being a good parent than turning up at a nativity play.

I don’t know how many times I can explain this @Dogmummy1980 but I’m a 30 something year old woman and I know young children can’t be left by themselves in the house. Please stop telling me this.

If workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers

Another very odd comment. IME companies want to retain their talent, whether these are parents or child free is completely irrelevant and wouldn't be a consideration

@sammylady37

a little understanding on this point from childless colleagues would be massively appreciated, often we just don’t have any other option

Not. My. Problem.

If I wanted to organise my life around childcare issues, I’d have had children of my own. But I didn’t. And it’s one of the many reasons I chose not to have children. And there’s no fucking way I’m organising my life around someone else’s offspring.

@sammylady37

That made me howl!! I do have a DC and childcare is difficult but I am 100% with you on this. My choice, my responsibility. Wouldn’t ever be entitled enough to think my childcare issues should be accommodated by any one else.

That’s often the main thing here. I mean really what is expected to be done with say a 5 year old off school when childminders/out of school clubs are closed?,

We (being the childfree/childless) simply expect that you find yourself a solution that doesn't involve us having to step in / work for you so that you can stay home. That's all.

Emergencies, one offs, occasional favours, yes of course, I like most of my colleagues and would want to help them out.

Not ever being able to have time off in July / August or over Christmas because other people think spending time with their kids is more important than my plans, or because they don't have childcare, nope, sorry.

Dogmummy, yes I’m sure parenting is all the wonderful things to you, but exactly what does that have to do with me? Why do you expect me to care?

Everything you’ve listed are your balls to juggle, not mine, and not anyone else’s. I have absolutely no issue with parents who are team players, I have issue with parents who think they’re entitled to have the childfree bend over backwards to accommodate them.

@sammylady37

To give you another side of things - as a parent when you attend any school event you see your child looking for you in the crowd. I’m sure you did this as a child too. But the look your child gives you when they see you is something that just can’t be described with words - that’s why I make sure I’m there when I can be

Neither of my parents ever attended a nativity play of mine. That never bothered me in the slightest. I knew I was loved. I knew they didn’t attend because of work commitments, not because they didn’t care. And it didn’t bother me, nor did it scar me for life. It taught me a valuable lesson in fact, ie that the world doesn’t revolve around me, that somethings have to be prioritised above others and that there’s more to being a good parent than turning up at a nativity play.

Well said.

I was never in a play or anything requiring a parent in the audience. And I've somehow managed to become a productive member of society.

@senorafridgidaire

That’s often the main thing here. I mean really what is expected to be done with say a 5 year old off school when childminders/out of school clubs are closed?,

We (being the childfree/childless) simply expect that you find yourself a solution that doesn't involve us having to step in / work for you so that you can stay home. That's all.

Emergencies, one offs, occasional favours, yes of course, I like most of my colleagues and would want to help them out.

Not ever being able to have time off in July / August or over Christmas because other people think spending time with their kids is more important than my plans, or because they don't have childcare, nope, sorry.

It is incomprehensible to me that people cannot be bothered to recruit and cultivate an array of babysitters and cooperative arrangements with friends/neighbors so that childcare in December isn't dependent on coworker sacrifices.

I put more thought into finding backup care for my dog! Starting before I acquired him because i knew the need would arise. Isn't that bare minimum?

""I mean really what is expected to be done with say a 5 year old off school when childminders/out of school clubs are closed?""

One would think the parents would have pondered that six years ago.

@BoredZelda

Why? Every employee should be treated equally. Personal circumstances are irrelevant.

So no allowances for disabled employees? Everyone should work the same hours regardless? No difference between junior members of staff who have just joined and more senior staff when seniority brings a different responsibility? Your gran dies, or your boiler breaks down or your dog was sick all over the kitchen, nope, everyone at their desk for 8 hours no matter what. What a load of codswallop.

Staff should be treated in a way that is equitable. That doesn’t mean staff should all be treated the same.

Allowances for disabled colleagues of course. Allowances for ‘but my Christmas is special, I’ve got kids. You haven’t got kids so why do you need to celebrate the biggest holiday of the year in the western world?’ Erm, not really.

In my workplace, the parents take plenty of flexibility - school runs 2x a day, school functions etc and I don't begrudge them that. In return, I will leave early for appointments etc. The expectation is that you do your work and that works fine, without inconveniencing others.

However, we do not have conflicts over holidays as it is acknowledged in our team that everyone has obligations of various kinds. I don't even factor in other people's obligations when I book leave and why should I? They don't worry about mine!

Our particular bit of the business will never run at popular holiday times - so they are downtimes for all. The whole business shuts for Christmas for 2 weeks. So, conflict is unlikely.

I don’t think it should be one or the other.

Being part of a team means you work as a team; do you not all discuss your leave requirements, cover arrangements and who worked last special family holiday before submitting your leave requests?

If not maybe try it as it will take away the divisiveness - it shouldn’t be pitted as no children against those with children

At my workplace there are union agreements regarding annual leave which are scrupulously fair. Block weeks leave is done on rotation, if you want to change your weeks you need to either find a vacant block, or someone willing to swap.

Individual days are first come, first served, so a flurry of emails gets sent to the roster clerk at 12:00 on a particular day in the autumn with the first requests for the next year. The first one in the book is guaranteed their leave, everyone else must wait until three days before the shift to see if they can be spared. Being declined doesn't happen too often.

Other depots have ballots for Christmas Eve/NYE/NYD but they remain first come, first served for us.

I sit on fence slightly here, I see your point. Child free people shouldn't be penalised however childcare is extortionate so I totally get why parents need that time off at peak times during holidays. Plus children do need that quality time with parents. For those that say you chose to have kids therefore pay childcare.... in last ten years the cost of living has exploded. Sadly salaries haven't risen proportionately to meet this. Those who say get a better Paid job to meet childcare costs? I think last year proved that we need the lower paid jobs like retail workers for society to function. We don't all have grandparents / friends/ family to help out. It's so different from generations ago when there were more stay at home mums and extended family to help etc. Until you're in that predicament of needing to have holidays off to make sure your kids are looked after our of school, you can't really sympathize.

But I do understand why those without kids feel it's unfair. Maybe some companies should look at balancing it out. If there's high demand for everyone to have peak time off, what about this who don't take leave in peak time get a couple of extra days leave each year to balance out the fairness...???

There's no right answer I guess, for me tho the needs of the child come first

Until you're in that predicament of needing to have holidays off to make sure your kids are looked after our of school, you can't really sympathize.

I’m in exactly that case. I have to carefully plan which jobs I can take and work it out with DH so that we can cover childcare between us. It means I have to mostly work evenings right now. When the children were small I worked at a nursery to cover this.

It’s life. Yes it’s hard but it’s not other people’s problem.

Out of curiosity OP (and I'm not being goading) how do you manage childcare in school holidays? I desperately struggle and have been known to stay awake for nearly 48 hours (give I'd take a couple of hours before shift starts when DHgets in at 7pm) to be able to do night shifts whilst DH is early shift and we simply can't find any family/ friends to help out and childminders wont do adhoc days. It's such a struggle I do wonder how others manage.

We factored this in when we chose to have a child but we are both emergency services and the nature of our job means that we can have our shifts changed and dictated to and cancelled days off with minimal notice. Hence why we have no choice but to take leave.