AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

I’m a parent and IMO it’s first come first serve with annual leave - however with jobs where rotas are put in place for say Christmas leave then children should be considered. I’ve had one Christmas a couple of years ago absolutely heartbroken as I had been forced to work until 3pm on Christmas Eve when my children had been going to their dads at teatime - I had half an hour with my kids prior to dropping them off with him. I’d say from 11am there was no work for our team but we weren’t allowed to go until other departments had finished their work.

But the fact id pleaded with my boss to be allowed to finish early so I could spend time with my young children and that had been refused really got to me. I no longer work for that company - other reasons - but this was a red flag that I disregarded!

“Sometimes you’ll be able to provide childcare for your children when there is no alternative, other times you won’t”

….and that is a problem for you, @BoredZelda, it’s not the responsibility of your childfree colleagues.

@BoredZelda

Why? Every employee should be treated equally. Personal circumstances are irrelevant.

So no allowances for disabled employees? Everyone should work the same hours regardless? No difference between junior members of staff who have just joined and more senior staff when seniority brings a different responsibility? Your gran dies, or your boiler breaks down or your dog was sick all over the kitchen, nope, everyone at their desk for 8 hours no matter what. What a load of codswallop.

Staff should be treated in a way that is equitable. That doesn’t mean staff should all be treated the same.

This thread is about booking holidays. And in that regard employees should all be treated equally and fairly.

I'm sure that's what the poster was getting at. Discussing the actual post not other employee rights.

@fakereview

The argument at my workplace is that not giving parents priority risks an indirect discrimination claim on the basis that women tend to be primary caters and sex is a protected characteristic

what about women who are carers of elderly parents but don't have children themselves? Women also tend to be carers the other direction?

That’s a valid point and rather than ignore the law you you should campaign for caring to be included as a protected characteristic.

@AudacityBaby

The argument at my workplace is that not giving parents priority risks an indirect discrimination claim on the basis that women tend to be primary caters and sex is a protected characteristic.

Which is ironic as my workplace is heavily female-dominated so the childless people left picking up the slack are also primarily female. Less easy to build a legal argument though so employer isn’t bothered.

I'm sure there was a case recently of a woman who took her employers to a tribunal as she was refused the opportunity to change her hours. She worked as part of a team which had shifts and weekend working. She only wanted to do the famy friendly shifts which meant the others had to do fewer of these shifts and more of the disliked shifts. It was held that she was being discriminated against and her team mates just had to suck it up.

@slashlover

That’s actually completely untrue. Adjustments are required to be made for disabilities, for all protected characteristics. I’m pregnant and as it gets harder to move I won’t have to go into the office. I am booking special leave for prenatal appointments I had this week. Parental leave is specifically for parents. Fair isn’t equal and the law recognises this.

Pregnancy and maternity are a protected characteristic, having kids isn't. How dare you equate your CHOICE to have a baby to having a disability.

It’s funny how all across the world, only women have ever chosen to have babies. Just bizarre when you think how unbalanced that is.

Responding to this particular ridiculous comment not the general thread theme! Also, parental leave is for existing children.

@timeisnotaline Can I just say that I’m not supportive of my workplace? I don’t agree with the way they look at it, at all. The caring point is a good one - it doesn’t come up as much in my workplace due to the age demographic but you’re right that it’s something that employers need to take seriously.

Not read the hundreds of replies but this echos the topic on Jeremy Vine on R2 today.

I texted in and a researcher rang me asking to speak but I bottled it.

Just because I chose not to have to children doesn't mean I chose to miss Christmas.

The first caller they had on womped on about working over Christmas then dropped into the conversation that she wasn't actually working on 25th December. Totally discredited her stance and made her look like a fool. Christmas is one day the rest is school holidays with a couple of bank holidays in lieu.

@BigFatLiar Doesn’t surprise me. My employer (for all its other faults) isn’t stupid about HR. Their policies are ridiculous but I don’t doubt that they’re there for a reason.

(I obviously don’t agree with this, needless to say. Just not shocked. Maternity discrimination exists but it’s also used as a sword.)

I'm an organised person so tend to book the majority of my leave early in the leave year. I would not be happy at having to wait to see if someone else wants it.

I've got February half term booked off as I want to spend time with family children. It won't be being cancelled due to someone else's lack of organisation.

For Christmas/Easter etc - I am in charge of the spreadsheet - all requests get added and I look to see who can have what, any compromises that may need to be made. People mostly get what they want but may need to work a day or 2 during the break. If there was no compromise it would have to be stricter based on previous years.

If we were to give preferential treatment to parents. How would that work? Would the employers of the parents discuss with each other about their arrangements to make sure both will be working? Is there a questionnaire to see if there are alternative childcare options? Or just an automatic you have a kid therefore you will get x days off automatically. Is there different rules depending on the age of of child?

Parent are in a very different positions as are childfree people. It would be interesting to see how it would be organised

….and that is a problem for you, @BoredZelda, it’s not the responsibility of your childfree colleagues.

Actually, it is a problem for my employer as I explained earlier. If they refuse, I’ll simply go elsewhere.

This thread is about booking holidays. And in that regard employees should all be treated equally and fairly.

In this scenario equally isn’t the same as fairly. Leaving parents with no childcare just to be “equal” can’t possibly be considered fair.

And only a complete arse would be happy to do that just on principle.

That’s a valid point and rather than ignore the law you you should campaign for caring to be included as a protected characteristic.

Maybe the parents should campaign for having kids to be included as a protected characteristic?

@BoredZelda

….and that is a problem for you, @BoredZelda, it’s not the responsibility of your childfree colleagues.

Actually, it is a problem for my employer as I explained earlier. If they refuse, I’ll simply go elsewhere.

This thread is about booking holidays. And in that regard employees should all be treated equally and fairly.

In this scenario equally isn’t the same as fairly. Leaving parents with no childcare just to be “equal” can’t possibly be considered fair.

And only a complete arse would be happy to do that just on principle.

Many childfree/childless people on this thread have said that they went elsewhere as employers constantly gave the holidays to those with kids.

Who is saying they are doing it on principle? People are doing it because they genuinely want to see their family, whether that is parents, grandkids, nieces, nephews, siblings or their friends at Christmas.

Parents shouldn't get any more privileged access to holiday dates than those without children. It's parents choice to have children. Those without children, or whose children have grown up, should be able to enjoy key holiday dates with their friends and family too.

‘Actually, it is a problem for my employer as I explained earlier. If they refuse, I’ll simply go elsewhere.‘

That is of course your choice. Still doesn’t put the onus on your colleagues to accommodate you, based on your choice to have children.

@whumpthereitis

‘Actually, it is a problem for my employer as I explained earlier. If they refuse, I’ll simply go elsewhere.‘

That is of course your choice. Still doesn’t put the onus on your colleagues to accommodate you, based on your choice to have children.

But is it a ‘choice’ to have children always?? I got pregnant unexpectedly with my eldest - I hadn’t planned my child but certainly when I got pregnant there was no way I wouldn’t have had him - my gorgeous DS. I think unless you have children, it can often be difficult to fully comprehend everything is done to care for your child.

Put it the other way - would YOU have been happy for it to be that your parents had never been home to care for you? On holidays/Christmas/inset days? Would YOU have been happy with your parents not attending your nativity plays?

Of course it’s a choice to have children, barring an anodyne/coercive relationship.

Contraception is readily available and someone with an unplanned pregnancy has a choice whether or not to have an abortion or to place the child up for adoption if she doesn’t agree with abortion.

That should say abusive, not anodyne, no idea why that auto corrected to that!

@Rewis

If we were to give preferential treatment to parents. How would that work? Would the employers of the parents discuss with each other about their arrangements to make sure both will be working? Is there a questionnaire to see if there are alternative childcare options? Or just an automatic you have a kid therefore you will get x days off automatically. Is there different rules depending on the age of of child?

Parent are in a very different positions as are childfree people. It would be interesting to see how it would be organised

Well certainly in my area, childcare is very few and far between - waiting lists aplenty!!! I would LOVE to have alternative childcare arrangements! My backup always is my mother - bearing in mind she is a strong willed independent lady in her 70s who has her own life and after raising her own children doesn’t like to be bogged down with her GC - as much as she loves them! So as much as I possibly can I try to take time off to care for them when required - believe me I’m completely on the view that childcare is first come first serve but a little understanding on this point from childless colleagues would be massively appreciated, often we just don’t have any other option

With the exception of those living in countries where they have no reproductive rights, yes, it absolutely is a choice.

No, I don’t understand the experience of a parent (and nor do I wish to), but I’m not obliged to. Your time is not more important than mine. Of course you may consider it to be, but that does not mean that I am responsible for accommodating you. All those things above you listed are issues for you to resolve, not me, and not anyone else who is childfree.

Also, my parents did work and sometimes they did indeed miss things. It was normal for me (actually I think it was, and us, normal for most children) and at no point do I ever recall feeling hard done by.

Those parents saying you took/take your turn to work at Xmas, what exactly do you do with your children while you're working? School is closed and there are no clubs on, on Xmas day
Has anyone on this thread actually left a child home alone on Xmas Day? If you did, did they open their presents by themselves, or wait until you got in from work? What about Xmas dinner? Did they just have cereal and stuff, until you got home and put dinner on?
I just can't imagine how a lone parent could make it work.

If I see the words “kind”, “understanding”, “slack”, “nice”, or “mean” one more time on this thread I honestly think I might scream.

a little understanding on this point from childless colleagues would be massively appreciated, often we just don’t have any other option

Not. My. Problem.

If I wanted to organise my life around childcare issues, I’d have had children of my own. But I didn’t. And it’s one of the many reasons I chose not to have children. And there’s no fucking way I’m organising my life around someone else’s offspring.

We know everything is done to care for your child. It’s not some kind of weird fact of life that only parents have discovered - we can imagine the need to care for something that is fully dependant on you. We’re childless, not sociopathic.

What it isn’t is our job. I am not co-parenting with you. I did not sign up to join in with your family and make it possible for you to stay at home with your children. To the extent that it’s not possible for you to do that then you’ll have to figure something out.

(She says, about to work her 7th consecutive Christmas because her employer will force childless staff to do just that.)