AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

I once worked with a nurse who had a child and demanded every Christmas off. She then went on to have another child with her ex partner - not actually together - and continued to demand every Christmas off and refused to do the shift if she was on the rota. I had two children and still did my fair share.

@catoftheland

I do think it would be kind of non-child carers to aim to book holidays outside of school holiday time if possible though

I think it would be kind of parents not to expect non parents to never have a holiday in the summer, attend a festival etc, but as demonstrated multiple times on this thread be kind only seems to work in one direction.

How do scout, guide, cadet, and other youth organisation volunteers fit into this, who often use their own holiday to take children away, and a fair number don't have children themselves, fit into this. Or people married to teachers etc etc. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting holiday when then want it and usually if people without parents when holiday in the school holidays its for a good reason, but even if its not, thats not for them to be told they aren't 'kind'

I once worked with a nurse who had a child and demanded every Christmas off. She then went on to have another child with her ex partner - not actually together - and continued to demand every Christmas off and refused to do the shift if she was on the rota. I had two children and still did my fair share.

I find this very odd. Ill people need to be cared for all year round. Maybe don't become a nurse if always having Christmas off is so important to you. I hope she was disciplined for missing her shift.

[quote biscuitsforcheese]@catoftheland

I do think it would be kind of non-child carers to aim to book holidays outside of school holiday time if possible though

I think it would be kind of parents not to expect non parents to never have a holiday in the summer, attend a festival etc, but as demonstrated multiple times on this thread be kind only seems to work in one direction.

How do scout, guide, cadet, and other youth organisation volunteers fit into this, who often use their own holiday to take children away, and a fair number don't have children themselves, fit into this. Or people married to teachers etc etc. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting holiday when then want it and usually if people without parents when holiday in the school holidays its for a good reason, but even if its not, thats not for them to be told they aren't 'kind'[/quote]
I meant that if you don't have a specific need for those dates then it would be kind of you to let people who do need those specific dates to have first refusal. I had a boss who would book off every 'good' date the morning the holiday calendar became bookable, just before telling us it was bookable, so I believe that people should try to be kind and fair about these things.

It's a philosophy I've used with my work colleagues pre DC - I always volunteered to work holidays, Christmas Day, people's birthdays and anniversaries etc so that people with children or caring responsibilities for ageing parents could have a bit less stress in their lives. I did it to be kind so would appreciate it if other people did the same.

You clearly understood that and didn't for one second think I meant only parents could go to music festivals and scout camp.

@CatOfTheLand before you had children did you have no friends, partner or family?
I ask because surely you'd want to spend Christmas with them?

Also, just because a person doesn't have kids doesn't mean they don't need summer, Easter, half terms off... what if they are friends with teachers? Ultimately we all have plans and priorities which aren't less important that those with school age kids.

@catoftheland

You clearly understood that and didn't for one second think I meant only parents could go to music festivals and scout camp.

No no actually as a childless person who has been criticized by parents for attending both festivals and scout camp in summer holidays I absolutely did not clearly understand you were not one of those people who think that.

It's a philosophy I've used with my work colleagues pre DC - I always volunteered to work holidays, Christmas Day, people's birthdays and anniversaries etc so that people with children or caring responsibilities for ageing parents could have a bit less stress in their lives. I did it to be kind so would appreciate it if other people did the same.

And thats very lovely of you, I have in fact done the same countless times. However, the issue is for people who are never going to have children, there is an expectation they are going to do this their entire working lives, because there is always another parent expecting first dibs at Christmas and summer etc. Its not, I will do all the Christmases for your child's first 7 years, for example, and then you will do the next few for me. That would be reasonable. But in 7 years there is another parent demanding the same etc etc and then suddenly its been years and years and your reasons are never quite worthy enough. So you only had to be kind until you had children, but I have to be kind until I retire, not quite the same thing. I've literally had parents of adult children tell me their need to spend Christmas with their children outweighs my parents need to spend Christmas with me (their child) and I couldn't possibly understand because I don't have children.

The fact is that even without children or caring responsibilities my needs for time spent with my family at Christmas, or some time off in the sun in summer is as worthy as yours. And you don't have the right to create a hierarchy of needs that places me at the bottom.

I will be flexible, I wont be a doormat, and I certainly wont be kind to anyone who thinks kindness only runs in one direction.

Pre child days when I worked, it was always assumed that out of several colleagues I would work certain days so they could have time off with their children, and honestly it sucked. I still had children in my family I wanted to see during their holidays, friends who worked like I did and had those times off. I still had a life.
I'm now a sahm, but I absolutely wouldn't expect non parents to have to work holidays so I could have the time off. I chose to be a parent, they have either chose to currently be child free, or cannot have children for a number of reasons. Why are they any less entitled to those dates?

AudacityBaby

Good point, actually!

The parent martyrs who only ever had children altruistically 'because who else was willing to do it?' - and never actually wanted the joys of parenthood for themselves.

Especially those with particularly large families, who seem to be constantly surprised at how much more work and stress it is to look after a lot of children than one or two (or none). I'm not talking about those who had sextuplets or who have been widowed, fled latterly-abusive relationships, later become severely disabled etc.; but just those who seem unable to realise that everybody would find it tough looking after 5+ children - and that's why most of us actively decide not to have that many (or indeed any).

We know somebody with 11 children who is always complaining about money being a struggle, the council not giving them a 'big enough' house etc. (for some strange reason, they don't have many 12-bedroom homes in their portfolio). Sometimes, it's like they want a medal. If you want a massive family, absolutely fine, go ahead - but own your choice and don't be doing the whole 'woe is me' thing 24/7.

I know someone with 5 kids including a disabled child. Not a blended family, they chose to have these children. She is constantly going on about how hard it is.
I do understand that even if you have chosen something you still want to be able to vent. But it is almost constant. I have come to the conclusion she just likes moaning.

The difficulty comes at the point that having certain holidays off is a condition for the parent employee in taking or continuing in the job. Parents (and indeed anyone else) are perfectly entitled to say, 'I won't work in a job where I have to work over Christmas'. Employers can then accept that or not, depending on their workforce needs. It is up to them then to manage relations with other employees, which may include pushing back on parents' requests for holidays and saying 'maybe this isn't the job for you if you need every Christmas off'.

Do parents actually say things like that when they're interviewed though?

[quote wannabeamummysobad]@CatOfTheLand before you had children did you have no friends, partner or family?
I ask because surely you'd want to spend Christmas with them?

Also, just because a person doesn't have kids doesn't mean they don't need summer, Easter, half terms off... what if they are friends with teachers? Ultimately we all have plans and priorities which aren't less important that those with school age kids. [/quote]
That's a need though, isn't it? If you need to go on holiday during school holidays because your travel companion can only go then.

My point was, if you don't need to go at times when other people do need to go then it would be kind to give them first refusal.

I hate having these conversations with childless people. I've been both sides of it - I wasn't born a parent, my Christian name isn't 'mum', but whatever I say it gets twisted to me saying that childless people are worth less and should be put in forced labour camps from July-sept and again at Christmas and Easter (but are allowed out again and get first dibs for Valentine's Day).

What I've actually said is it would be kind of people who have no need for particular dates let people who do need them have first refusal. Whether that need is social, care-based, political, religious or logistical

@CatOfTheLand and people who have no need should take whatever is left presumably?

@slashlover. Many people I know have negotiated additional time off/certain holidays off as part of returning to work after maternity leave or remaining in a job. I have one friend who takes the whole of the summer holidays off (unpaid). That's the deal she's negotiated with her employer.

I agree that just turning up having accepted a job and saying 'I want Christmas off because I'm a parent' is entitled and unreasonable.

My longtime workplace has a system where length of tenure at the employer gives rights to select days off, if you book by April 1.

I missed many a family moment including my grandmother's last Christmas, due to that system. Now that I am senior and have my pick of days, we get newcomer parents clamoring that it's "unfair!" "Little Evvie and Angus will be so disappointed!"

One spineless manager was cowed by one of the more aggressive parents and tried to make some of us senior childfree switch to work Christmas & Christmas Eve (we are a 24/7 industry.)

She got an earful and we escalated to the director, who enforced the existing policy. She didn't help her career by trying to discriminate against non-parents.

I agree with you. In my places of work I've not had preferential treatment because of having children. One memorable year I worked every public holiday bar one. And most of my colleagues had no children at that point. So I think some workplaces obviously don't pay any regard to who has children and who doesn't, it's just how the rota falls any particular year.

What I've actually said is it would be kind of people who have no need for particular dates let people who do need them have first refusal. Whether that need is social, care-based, political, religious or logistical

And if my need is to spend a week in the sun in my garden in August?

You say you aren't saying childless people are worth less, but if you create a hierarchy of needs, and put their needs lower down the hierarchy you are literally saying their needs are worth less

I think she is differentiating between needs and wants. But the truth is of one person needs a particular date off, then other peoples wants can work around that. In most workplaces though there are multiple people with specific dates they need. So those who have just wants would have to take whatever is left. Which may not be great times for anyone to take a holiday.

@biscuitsforcheese

What I've actually said is it would be kind of people who have no need for particular dates let people who do need them have first refusal. Whether that need is social, care-based, political, religious or logistical

And if my need is to spend a week in the sun in my garden in August?

You say you aren't saying childless people are worth less, but if you create a hierarchy of needs, and put their needs lower down the hierarchy you are literally saying their needs are worth less

Exactly.

Who gets to define "need"???

But surely that is how it works if you have a holiday system that ‘opens’ on a certain day? That’s the downside of a first come first served system, if you’re not the first to come you’re not the first served.

Not if only some people are shift the day it opens..... it could be days before those not on shift are actually in the workplace and have the opportunity to submit their request.

@julieca

I think she is differentiating between needs and wants.

I get that, I think my issue here is it feels like people can dictate whether other peoples reasons are a 'want' or a 'need', but the reality is one persons want can be another persons need

After all childcare tends to be available in one form or another for the entire summer holiday, but I would not class a parents desire to book some of the summer off as a 'want' instead of a 'need', but it would be kind (pun intended) if some of the parents on here would extend the same courtesy back

Luckily the vast majority of parents are actually decent human beings as with any other group of people

The other thing is that having childcare in place but wanting to spend Christmas with your kids is a "want", not a "need". It might well the most important want in the whole wide world to you, but if we're going on a needs basis, then that doesn't just exclude the frivolous whims of the childless. It excludes things parents would really like as well.

If we want happy, well rounded young adults in society we need to support parents who want to put time & resources into young children.

Sorry, and this can ONLY happen during school holidays can it?

Give over ey.

I don't think DPs should get preferential treatment but when you have an under 12 and 10-12 weeks of school holidays and get only 6 week of holiday yourself, it is a challenge.

I appreciate it is a self generated one and nobody's problem but the DPs own, but nonetheless oddly enough most DPs prefer to take the holidays at the same time as their own DCs. That doesn't mean they get to hog all the best time off, but it does seem mean to say that someone's right to sit in their garden equals that of a DP to look after their DCs.

Maybe I'm biased though as can't wait until DS finishes school and I no longer have to work around the holiday dates and can enjoy cheaper times away.

Before I had children I had exactly this argument with someone who felt their new-parent status gave them first dibs on Christmas leave. I pointed out that I had a finite number of Christmases left to spend with my elderly parents and he didn't get priority every year.

@CatOfTheLand nobody needs a particular day in the summer holidays off. Kids or no kids - it's all a want.

I won't repeat what others have said to you down thread. Also makes me laugh that you think everyone that disagrees with you mustn't have child caring responsibilities