AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

Most people would be furious if, at interviews, they were asked what their child care set up is.
They would correctly state that is nothing to do with how they work, what wages they receive, or how they perform as an employee.
However... come holiday times, especially Christmas, the world and his wife suddenly need to know exactly how many children they have, all their issues regarding child care etc etc.
No... either you work to exactly the same principles as everyone else, regardless of how many children, grannies, cats, dogs or anything else you are responsible for, or you find employment where you take into account your child care responsibilities and not rely on other people sorting it out for you.
Where I worked for 18 years, everyone’s shifts were recorded, if you worked Christmas and Boxing Day one year, you didn’t the next, you worked New Years Eve and New Years Day. This was explained in detail at interviews and everyone in all areas were fully aware of this.
If people swapped shifts to cover for each other, that was fine and agreed by management.
No one ever had preferential treatment due to having children and it worked well.
One year one employee’s husband died suddenly in October and it was her turn to work Christmas, people were immediately offering to cover her shifts so she could be at home with her children over Christmas.
We never had a high turnover of staff and people on every level from the manager down understood the relevance of working as a team for the benefit of all the people we cared for.
It was an extremely fair system regarding all holidays for everyone.

I do sympathise with your position and I'm not trying to make a point about your specific situation, but I think it's quite telling that as an example of giving, you've come up with "I make it easier for others to cover for me".

I know, I found that quite staggering in its audacity. Here, as an example of what a good colleague I am, and how much ‘give’ I’m willing to show in response to the amount of ‘taking’ I do, let me tell you how I make it easier for people to cover me when I’m doing the taking.

Should we have better working culture generally in the UK for parents? Yeah, 100%. I work directly on raising awareness of how flexible working, job sharing, and parent-friendly workplaces are important, and will positively impact women especially.

Employers should do better. But that should not include disadvantaging people without children.

Yes exactly, this really is the responsibility of employers, not child free employees to deal with, many employers seem to take the attitude that it's not their responsibility, but that of their employees to organise that the work is covered when someone else is absent, be that due to childcare or sickness etc, and that filters down and is very present in the workforce judging by this thread (and others) and what I've seen in real life.
Parents are always going to need to put children first, I am a parent, and was a single parent (suppose I still am but my child is an adult now) and I get that, however it's the employer that should have contingency plans that extend beyond "You don't have kids" to those who don't to sort these situations out.
The pressure should be on the employer, not the colleagues.

@logsonlogsoff my mum is in a home with advanced dementia, she was amazing at helping out with my dd, maybe think before you make nasty comments about 'single working mums' you have no idea of their circumstances.

YANBU. The thing is family is not just your children. When I worked in retail, I was made to do evenings and weekends because "the parents need the weekday shifts". I get that, but my parents work full time during the week. When am I supposed to see them? Same goes for Christmas. Sure, children love Christmas. But what about my elderly and very ill grandmother? Doesn't she deserve people to come see her on Christmas Day? But if everyone who doesn't have little children is expected to work on Christmas, then no one will be able to go see her.

Reality is that you don’t know anyone's circumstances. Just because they don’t have children doesn't mean they don’t have other things affecting their lives.

I think it's very fair of your employers to check that leave at a popular time wasn't being monopolised by one person

I disagree. If someone is organised enough to jump in and book Christmas on Jan 1st every year why should they lose out to someone who whines in March or September that they have kids and should have priority? If you have kids and you need childcare you are organised and plan ahead. Same goes for any time you need for any reason.

Christmas is different from say school summer holiday dates, where I think it's fair and right for a first come, first served policy to be in place.

Frankly if not everyone who asks for it can have Christmas off then the only really fair way of doing it is by lottery. Otherwise it's too hard to factor in all the different scenarios and many people move around in roles and departments these days so rotating may not work.

In jobs where there needs to be cover the only fair way to do it is have a rota in place - so you might work Xmas eve but get NY eve off etc. And then swap with colleagues if you need to or they’re willing.
I used to work bank hols, Xmas as we got double pay and I volunteered. My ex worked over Xmas NY on rota as she was a doctor.
My dad worked shifts and in call and sometimes he wasn’t around, but we weren’t traumatised by him having to go out on Xmas day on a call.
Everyone has their own circumstances to deal with so being a parent or even a SINGLE parent doesn’t trump others private lives.

‘ lollipoprainbow

@logsonlogsoff my mum is in a home with advanced dementia, she was amazing at helping out with my dd, maybe think before you make nasty comments about 'single working mums' you have no idea of their circumstances.’

Exactly. You’re making my point. No-one knows the individual circs of a colleague so holidays should be fairly organised or divided out. Otherwise it can cause massive resentment among colleagues- not a good thing. I did work with one single parent who basically refused to work in the run up to Xmas, Easter, told mge exactly which hols she would be taking over the summer at the start of the year and was totally inflexible. Leaving the rest of us to cover.
Not sure how she got away with it - think the boss was just scared of her- because she had her mum next door and extended family all around.

I’m amazed at the number of single parents who apparently exist in a bubble, with no family, babysitters, or friends who could help out. Their kids must similarly exist in a bubble with no classmates or friends with whom they go on play dates etc. And so many of these people then have jobs which require Christmas cover. I mean, if you knew your support structure was so non-existent wouldn’t you look for alternative work that counsel accommodate your very specific circumstances or wouldn’t you try damn hard to improve your support network? It makes sense to have one for many reasons, including illness, not just to allow you fulfil your contractual obligations at work.

We all work set hours, the only way that me having a child impacts on my work is if I need time off last minute (which is thankfully rare), but I've made an effort to mitigate the impact that it has. What do you think I should be doing for others because occasionally when my child is poorly or hospitalised I've had to take unpaid or annual leave without much notice?

I don’t think you should be doing anything, but it doesn’t answer the question of when this flexibility is returned. The fact is it isn’t returned.

@sammylady37 your comments are unfair. I remember being a working DP when DS was young and I wasn't even a single parent, but sometimes it was hard enough to tread water never mind building up support networks through play dates. Even the best support network in the world is unlikely to want to have someone else's DCs on Christmas Day and aren't SAHM always cautioned on here about helping out working DPs with childcare?

it's the employer that should have contingency plans

But the employer is not supposed to ask prospective employees about their children, childcare responsibilities etc. How are they supposed to know what contingency plans they might need?

YANBU. When I was single (living up north on a graduate program) someone tried to say I didn't "deserve" all of Xmas off because I didn't have children. I simply told the CF i) I booked it so am taking it ii) I'm someone's child and they want to see me iii) they see their kids every day, I can't get down south every weekend iv) their decision to have children shouldn't inconvenience me.

I'm now married and pregnant and feel the same way.

Personally the unreasonable ones are the parents who block book all their annual leave as soon as the calendar opens. Now I'm senior I don't allow it. My team knows everyone's need for leave is equal in priority. You can't book all of Xmas off and take the summer BH and the Easter holidays just because you are a parent. Everyone deserves to be able to make use of the BH to extend leave.

We all need short notice time off now and again - some more than others. Not just parents. And good employers realise this. Reasons my colleagues have needed short notice time off recently - we’re not in a critical industry BTW, not medical or teachers etc- include : death of a pet, colleague was distraught, ill child, ill parent, relationship breakup, opportunity to go to a rare fun event, child given opp to do an audition for something.
All fine, all covered by willing colleagues because in our dept time off is given out fairly for life events, not just to parents.

@sammylady37 your comments are unfair

What’s unfair about saying people should make contingency plans for their particular circumstances? It’s surely the responsible thing to do, rather than not doing so and expecting others to pick up the slack?

@DameAlyson

it's the employer that should have contingency plans

But the employer is not supposed to ask prospective employees about their children, childcare responsibilities etc. How are they supposed to know what contingency plans they might need?

No, but they do know that people get sick, that people need time off for things that happen be that childcare failure or your roof caving in, at short notice and that Christmas and summer are always the times that people are going to want to have off regardless of their personal circumstances - it's not a new phenomenon. To that end they should have contingency plans that extend beyond those without child care responsibility doing it all, and make it clear that regardless of personal circumstances, Christmas/New year working is required as is during traditional summer holiday time by everyone, distributed fairly and stick to it. It's then up to the employee to accept or decline the terms based on their personal circumstances, not accept and then expect others to facilitate because they don't have children. If it's not acceptable to ask about dependants and childcare, because it's irrelevant, then it's also irrelevant why anyone wants leave/a fair amount of time off over popular holiday times.

@DameAlyson

it's the employer that should have contingency plans

But the employer is not supposed to ask prospective employees about their children, childcare responsibilities etc. How are they supposed to know what contingency plans they might need?

Exactly.

Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

@sammylady37

I’m amazed at the number of single parents who apparently exist in a bubble, with no family, babysitters, or friends who could help out. Their kids must similarly exist in a bubble with no classmates or friends with whom they go on play dates etc. And so many of these people then have jobs which require Christmas cover. I mean, if you knew your support structure was so non-existent wouldn’t you look for alternative work that counsel accommodate your very specific circumstances or wouldn’t you try damn hard to improve your support network? It makes sense to have one for many reasons, including illness, not just to allow you fulfil your contractual obligations at work.

I wonder the same things.

And heron lies the problem.
It’s absolutely nobody’s business what you use annual leave for.
It really isn’t.
You have as much right to take 2 weeks off in August as anyone else.
Most employees role along fine. See my point regarding Christmas though. Christmas is the same date for everyone, regardless of if you have 15 kids or none.

Precisely this. People are different and it's not for anybody else to make a value judgment as to how they prefer to spend their time off. There's a man in Melksham known as 'Mr Christmas' who celebrates Christmas every single day. None of the features I've read about him seem to mention him having children/family, but it's obviously a massive part of his life. Can you imagine him being told point-blank that he can never have actual Christmas off, because he doesn't have children and so it's not important to him? I'd find his life dull, but I'm sure he'd find many aspects of my life dull - different strokes for different folks.

Can you imagine if, every single time a parent came in to work in a new car, with a shop-bought lunch, new coat, fancy handbag, expensive suit or whatever, all of their non-parent colleagues made a big issue about how they should have bought something cheaper for themselves and used the money for presents for their kids - "as a parent, you would be expected to have different priorities with your finances" ? Assuming that nobody would find behaviour like that appropriate, what difference is there in principle in telling people how they should be expected to value/spend/plan their spare time?

[quote Glassofshloer]@Darkpheonix but unless they have the power to sign off their own leave, then surely the issue lies with the management? And this is a case of general twattery like the child free lady example I used?[/quote]
Of course it is, if its being allowe

Buy its also a problem with people's expectation that their lives should be more important than everyone else's.

Even if the manager doesn't allow it, but the parent in question is then trying to convince, guilt and strop to get their own way its a problem with them.

Its about attitudes. And there is a problem with alot (not all) of parents thinking everyone else has a responsibility to work around them.

So back to what I said, that an expectation that your colleagues will pick up the shirty end because you have kids isn't ok. And nor all parents agree. So your comment about 'I would have thought the same before kids- doesn't sit right. Because that's assuming people just dont understand. However, plenty of us parents agree, our kids are not everyone else's responsibility.

Not that long ago there was a thread on here where people were talking about how childless people who were willing to look after other peoples children, or even childless people who had toys in their house for nieces and nephews, were weird, strange, untrustworthy and quite probably paedophiles. Now obviously not everyone on the thread were saying that but there were a fair number who were absolutely determined that if you didn't have children you were definitely up to no good if you looked after anyone elses.

I would love to know the cross over between those posters and the:

"Childless people dont understand how hard it is to look after children"
"There is no one else to look after my children"

Posters on this thread. Because I have a feeling there probably is a cross over.

There are plenty of lovely parents who don't take the piss, and who don't expect or demand unlimited flexibility just because they are a parent

But there are also a subset of parents on this thread and in real life who seem to think their ability to have unprotected sex overrides anyone elses right to be fairly treated.

And apart from the one childless person who has been brought up countless times on this thread who kept requesting christmas off because of grief/mental health, the reality is this behaviour tends to go in one direction.

So if you are feeling got at by this thread as a parent maybe have a think about whether your requests are really reasonable.

Because whilst most of us parents or not, are willing to be flexible to peoples lifes circumstances, if more than one person isnt being flexible with you, you may have reached the limit of taking without giving.

I once asked for Christmas off because it was the due date of my baby I lost. I was turned down because Christmas is more important for live children than dead children. I left that job as soon as I could, and when they asked why I was leaving they didnt understand what the problem was.

I don't put myself last any more. I'm flexible but not to the point of it actually being detrimental to me. I am now in a work place that is flexible for parents, we have actually had people join the team specifically for the flexibility. But my boss is amazing and the flexibility is there for everyone, not just parents and thats lovely too.

He makes it work by making sure the teams workload is never overloaded, that way there is always some spare time if someone needs to do a school run or pop out to pick something up, without it adding to others workload. Which means if something comes in which does overload us we are all willing to go the extra mile because its unavoidable. And if no one needs the spare time we just move on to the next task and get ahead of ourselves.

To those asking how employers can fix the problem - employing enough people that everyone isnt constantly expecting to work over and above all the time, so that one person popping out for half an hour causes massive impacts to everyone else actually really helps.
To many work places cut staff, expect people to pick up extra work when people leave and aren't replaced etc and then that in turn means the workplace is inflexible because everyone is working at speed with no time to breath, its unhealthy and breeds resentment when people do then have to leave for a school run etc because someone has to pick up the extra work because there is no time to leave it.

I think whoever has the most need - so carers of any form, someone getting married, someone moving house etc should get their needs met as far as possible. However, parents shouldn't get first dibs on plum holiday dates just by virtue of being parents. I do think it would be kind of non-child carers to aim to book holidays outside of school holiday time if possible though

Can you imagine if, every single time a parent came in to work in a new car, with a shop-bought lunch, new coat, fancy handbag, expensive suit or whatever, all of their non-parent colleagues made a big issue about how they should have bought something cheaper for themselves and used the money for presents for their kids - "as a parent, you would be expected to have different priorities with your finances" ? Assuming that nobody would find behaviour like that appropriate, what difference is there in principle in telling people how they should be expected to value/spend/plan their spare time?

It's funny, because I find that some people do think behaviour like this is appropriate. Reversed, obviously. I've seen people come into the office with a new fancy outfit or what have you, and heard comments like, "oh gosh I wish I could afford that, but that's what happens when you have kids, I haven't bought anything for myself since 1842 - how the other half live eh!" or what have you.

(Don't get me started on the colleague I have who likes to scold the rest of us for poor environmental decision-making, as her 5 kids are going to inherit our choices.)

I remember a thread on here where OP was upset that a colleague without kids had said that she'd hate to have kids as it sounded so boring. I found that such a staggeringly mild comment to get upset about, compared to the rubbish that childless women are told all of the bleeding time.

Just observations, really.

@Goldbar

I suspect it's a supply-demand issue in many cases.

I work in a job where I can take most holidays off or work flexibly from home. It's not hugely well-paid but I'm not particularly interested in moving to a different job that pays more if it means I lose that flexibility. I know people who work in better-paid jobs with zero flexibility and they hire holiday nannies (at least the very well-paid ones!) or use holiday childcare.

If workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility. And of course, the less they pay their employees, the less likely it is that it will be financially viable for parents to use expensive holiday childcare.

For those saying that this demonstrated 'sneering superiority' that parents are better workers, it wasn't intended to.

On average, parents may be worse workers due to days off, childcare commitments, illness, emergency leave etc. Whether the employer has to put up with this depends on whether, if you remove the parent pool of employees, they can find sufficient workers to do the job. It is absolutely clear that some jobs are incompatible with being a primary carer for children. City law firms, for example, expect you to be available 24/7 and work beyond your set hours without any notice when required. So you can never be sure of leaving in time to care for your children. The result is to exclude those who have primary care of children (unless they are willing to hire a 24/7 nanny). Because the pay is high enough, there is still a sufficiently large pool of workers that they don't have to change their working model.

In my job, the pay is relatively low but it's quite specialised so there's not that many people who could do it without substantial training. People do it because it offers the flexibility to essentially set your own hours to a large extent. And no one is expected to work Christmas or New Year. In other jobs, obviously working over Christmas and New Year is necessary and expected - I wouldn't have thought anyone becomes a hospital doctor, a nurse or a carer, for example, without being prepared to work some holidays, even if they become a parent.

The difficulty comes at the point that having certain holidays off is a condition for the parent employee in taking or continuing in the job. Parents (and indeed anyone else) are perfectly entitled to say, 'I won't work in a job where I have to work over Christmas'. Employers can then accept that or not, depending on their workforce needs. It is up to them then to manage relations with other employees, which may include pushing back on parents' requests for holidays and saying 'maybe this isn't the job for you if you need every Christmas off'.