AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

As a parent, I believe one of the main issues is that too many parents forget to 'give' and only 'take'.

So much in this thread claiming Christmas is more important or special for those with kids. That people should cut parents some slack, look at it from their point of view, be flexible for them. That colleagues should priorise their children and not their not themselves or their own families.

And very little about how they ever offer that back. It appears that quite a few working parents seem to believe it should all go one way.

And they expect this while telling other people that their Christmases, holidays, time at home and outside work isn't as special or important as theirs.

I have rearranged quite a bit of my own leave this year, to accommodate all sorts. One team member was going our for her birthday. I was off the next day but didn't have plans. I knew her boyfriend was proposing, so cancelled that day. I didn't have plans. Just using holiday. When she called and asked for last minute holiday so she could go visit hers and his parents and the them, it was fine. If I want able to cancel the days leave, I am 99% sure her team would have been happy picking up the slack for a day. Like everyone would do for them.

It didn't matter to me that she could have called them or gone after work. They were excited and wanted to tell them in person. I could accommodate and did. I cancelled a day in the last half term, I booked off because a grandmother had chance to see her grandkids who she has hardly seen due to covid. Again, I didn't have plans so was happy to swop.

People really need to consider what give and take really means and also look at how they make sure they are giving back. Instead of assuming everyone should always prioritising them.

My experience is that people only get pissed off with parents, when the parents are always taking and never giving.

@Ohpulltheotherone well said. As a single working mum the holidays are a nightmare for childcare. We don't all have family that can step in and help or an unlimited budget for holidays clubs etc.

@Kanaloa

To be honest holidays aren't hotly contested where I work so no one is overly doing much giving. The one way being a parent affects my work is I'm more likely to be off unexpectedly last minute, ie when I've been in hospital with my child. I make it as easy as possible for the team by keeping a live spreadsheet of what's urgent, what can wait, where stuff is and I'll log in to pop my out of office on so they aren't fielding emails all day. I try and be a decent member of the team and mindful of others, my child will always be my priority though of course.

That’s not really you giving. Not in the reciprocal way people mean. That’s just you making it easier for them to help you.

What people mean is when does this flexibility that so many think parents are entitled to benefit the child free colleagues?

We all work set hours, the only way that me having a child impacts on my work is if I need time off last minute (which is thankfully rare), but I've made an effort to mitigate the impact that it has. What do you think I should be doing for others because occasionally when my child is poorly or hospitalised I've had to take unpaid or annual leave without much notice?

I used to work for a company that bigged itself up on being "family friendly". I will avoid working for any such company again. Because basically what it meant was "fuck everyone else".

I asked for years to do a 4 day week and was refused, despite 90% of my team doing it, and was told it was because I didn't have children.

We were told not to request annual leave in August or September as they are our busiest times and they couldn't spare us. But lo and behold, exceptions were made for the parents and everyone else had to suck it up.

I think it's really important that employers are flexible - but to everyone. Otherwise it is really unfair.

Where I work now I am on a 4 day week with flexible working and a fair approach to who takes leave when. So I am much happier.

I don’t agree with first come first served for times such as Christmas. What do employers do if every employee requests Christmas week as annual leave, and they all request it at exactly the same time? They can’t just close for the week. The only way to do that is a rota. Everyone is entitled to that time off and I say that as a parent.
The same with summer. My employer tried telling us that “There are 52 weeks in a year, plenty of time for everyone to take their annual leave.” Well no shit Sherlock but Christmas is the 25th December, not the 25th January or February so no the 52 weeks are not all equal are they. Likewise with summer. I want time off in summer and that means around July/August time. Yes I’ll maybe take time off in June but again I’m not going to accept that 2 weeks in February and 2 weeks in November is acceptable to me because it isn’t.
I do put my holidays in quickly, I’m on the ball yet I have still offered to swap with colleagues if they later have asked for the same week provided they are not taking the piss and I’m not doing anything specific.
Would I swap Christmas, absolutely not.

@whumpthereitis

‘If there is no other childcare, i apreciate it "isnt your problem" but what is your solution? A non-working parent in each house for 16 years? Are you going to pay extra tax for that? Part time employees pay a good wedge, what % of tax increase would be needed for it? Or would you rather only the wealthy breed?‘

No matter how hard you try and make it the problem of childfree or childless colleagues, the bottom line is that it isn’t. Nor is finding the solution.

What? I pay tax that I will never see the benefit of already, specifically the huge amounts that go towards maternity leave, subsidised childcare, child benefit and schools and the disproportionate use of the NHS. You want me to pay more for childcare for Xmas? No. I would say that's your responsibility. You have options. Plan ahead and get paid for care, leave child with relatives or friends, swap the day with a person who is keen to work and give them a bribe? Find a job that fits around your childcare responsibilities? Ask for a pay rise? The answer is definitely not "if child free people want a day off at Xmas they can pay for my childcare"

@Riverlee

“I don’t think wanting to visit a parent or friend quite compares to wanting to spend some time with your child. “

So me wanting to visit my dad, in his 90s, is less important than others spending time with kids?

Exactly. How about this?

"I don’t think wanting to spend some time with your child who you see every day and will see at some point during the day quite compares with seeing your sick and elderly parents who you haven't seen in 2 years due to covid and work commitments, have spent most of that alone and for whom you are their only child."

The entitlement and self absorption of some parents with small children is staggering.

And heron lies the problem.
It’s absolutely nobody’s business what you use annual leave for.
It really isn’t.
You have as much right to take 2 weeks off in August as anyone else.
Most employees role along fine. See my point regarding Christmas though. Christmas is the same date for everyone, regardless of if you have 15 kids or none.

'I don't think wanting to visit a parent or friend quite compares to wanting to spend some time with your child' is one of the worst comments I have read on this forum. Then there's the one about flexibility of employers at the expense of non-parents.
These selfish, opinionated and quite frankly, disgusting 'mums' are bringing up children. Happy to plough through life demanding what THEY want and expecting the rest of the world to march to their tune, their needs and their kids, regardless of the circumstances of others.
Thank heavens for the largely very understanding parents here. More likely to be helped by the no-child colleague than those who scream for everything. And their children will be learning behaviours appropriate to being a member of society, rather than selfish sods like their demanding mothers

biscuitsforcheese

You appear to be blaming childless people for it being angry? Have you actually read some of the crap childless people have had to put up with. This is just another example of 'be kind' being trotted out in only one direction

No god I'm saying both ways, sorry if I came off wrong, now I read it back it sounds that way, I was saying everyone should be equal and it's sad this thread is one against the other, both ways. Sorry.

My dad worked in the prison service which meant that he got lumped with some pretty unsociable hours but also worked through the holidays. It was organised very well though so you either did Christmas or New Year and they alternated every year so it was very fair.

I remember being very young and my dad wishing me a merry Christmas on the phone during his lunch break and it didn't scar me for life. Kids aren't that fussed if you're there or not, to be honest. Parents shouldn't get priority, so YANBU.

‘As a single working mum the holidays are a nightmare for childcare. We don't all have family that can step in and help or an unlimited budget for holidays clubs etc.’

We have a ‘single, working mum’ in our team and god don’t we all know about. Half of our meetings are scheduled around her home life.
You don’t get extra brownie points for raising a child on your own. Everyone has their own circumstances.
Another team member has a DH who works long hours out of the hse in a low paid job, young kids and a mother with dementia who lives with them.
We barely hear from her about how difficult her day to day is though it really must be.

@sammylady37

if workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility

Funny isn’t it, that if someone suggested an employer considering someone’s parental status at interview and using it to decide whether or not to offer them a job, (deciding perhaps that someone who wanted flexibility to do school runs, attend parent teacher meetings, go to assemblies, sports days, nativity plays, be available for pick up at short notice etc was maybe not the reliable consistent employee they wanted) there’d be an outcry but once a parent is in the job they want their circumstances considered and taken into account and to be given preferential treatment ‘even if that flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers’.

This is an excellent point.

@sammylady37

if workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility

I'm confused by a business model that included fucking over childless people in an effort to retain parents. Kind of reads to me like you think parents are better employees who deserve to be retained where as their childless counterparts have zero experience worth retaining....

What? I pay tax that I will never see the benefit of already, specifically the huge amounts that go towards maternity leave, subsidised childcare, child benefit and schools and the disproportionate use of the NHS. You want me to pay more for childcare for Xmas? No. I would say that's your responsibility. You have options. Plan ahead and get paid for care, leave child with relatives or friends, swap the day with a person who is keen to work and give them a bribe? Find a job that fits around your childcare responsibilities? Ask for a pay rise? The answer is definitely not "if child free people want a day off at Xmas they can pay for my childcare"

I do get what you’re saying, and I guess that would’ve been my attitude before having children.

But I think you need to step back a bit and not be sucked into the ‘I as a taxpayer’ thing which makes us all quite short sighted.

Most people have children. 70 odd years ago, this wouldn’t have been an issue - most women with children didn’t work 9-5 jobs, and one wage generally sustained a family.

Now, most women don’t have a choice, we have to work. And frankly, people without children don’t really understand that ‘good organisation’ won’t solve some things. So you book a childminder or relative, & they’re ill; what then? The nursery won’t take them between Xmas and NY, and your normally dependable relative has decided to go on holiday; what then?

Children aren’t dogs, particularly when they’re very little you can’t just fling them at the first available person & hope for the best. My line manager suggested ‘a friend’ taking DD when she was unwell. I mean, seriously 🙄 firstly all of my friends work, secondly most of them have kids of their own, thirdly why would they want our germs?!

Parents should be organised & try every reasonable avenue before taking time off at short notice etc, but sometimes it just isn’t possible. I know it’s unfair as there isn’t a direct comparison with something that may have the same effect on a child free person’s life. Possibly an elderly parent with significant care needs? And if this was the case I would say they absolutely should have the same consideration & flexibility.

I think we should all be a bit more understanding toward one another, nobody plans to be a single parent/have a disabled child/a sick babysitter etc

In terms of planned annual leave people should take it in turns regardless of whether they have kids or not.

[quote biscuitsforcheese]@sammylady37

if workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility

I'm confused by a business model that included fucking over childless people in an effort to retain parents. Kind of reads to me like you think parents are better employees who deserve to be retained where as their childless counterparts have zero experience worth retaining....[/quote]
You tagged me in this but the bit you quoted wasn’t my post, I had only quoted it to reply to it!

I’m in full agreement with your point, the ‘if they want to retain parents was said with such sneering superiority, as if parents were guaranteed to be better employees

@Glassofshloer how are you accounting for those of us who are parents and still don't think it's our colleagues jobs to get the shitty end of the stick?

I was. I was a single parents for a good portion of it. Of course I needed a bit of flexibility and colleagues helped me out. But they helped me out because I would also help them out when they needed it to.

And again, I don't believe most parents want Christmas off because they don't have childcare. Most want it off to be with their family but seem to think them wanting to be with their family is more important than what anyone else wants to do.

@sammylady37 I'm so sorry!! I'm not a morning person and clearly my brain has not switched on yet, sorry!!

Surely the answer is everyone takes it in turns for Xmas? If you worked it last year you don't this year. If you don't want to then tough or find someone to swap with.

[quote Darkpheonix]@Glassofshloer how are you accounting for those of us who are parents and still don't think it's our colleagues jobs to get the shitty end of the stick?

I was. I was a single parents for a good portion of it. Of course I needed a bit of flexibility and colleagues helped me out. But they helped me out because I would also help them out when they needed it to.

And again, I don't believe most parents want Christmas off because they don't have childcare. Most want it off to be with their family but seem to think them wanting to be with their family is more important than what anyone else wants to do.[/quote]

1. I didn’t say they should get the shitty end. I said ideally people are nice enough to help each other’s out, and get the favour returned one day.

1. Has anyone actually said they think their Christmas is more important than everyone else’s, besides the odd twat? Like I said the only woman in my team who actually said this was child free, her parents death anniversary fell the week before Christmas so she would insist she was too depressed to work each year & needed the time off 🤷🏼‍♀️

@KwestTurkey

Unless you’re lucky enough to have a retired grandparent who is happy & capable to look after the children, what is the alternative?

Well put very bluntly, it was your decision to have children, not your colleagues.

I'm a parent of 2 and agree with this. My choice, my responsibility. Yes it's hard but me being in this position doesn't make me more 'special' or important than my child free colleague's, they have just as much right to the leave as me. I Ieft a career so it would be more manageable with my decision to have kids I've now returned to it 15 yrs later best decision I ever made. We all have to be responsible for the choices we make and not expect others to accommodate them. I dis absorb a huge pay cut for this to but always understood that life could change so never got to used to a certain lifestyle, this did make my move easier.

But as a follow up to my last comment, I don’t judge child free people for her actions 🤷🏼‍♀️

To be honest holidays aren't hotly contested where I work so no one is overly doing much giving. The one way being a parent affects my work is I'm more likely to be off unexpectedly last minute, ie when I've been in hospital with my child. I make it as easy as possible for the team by keeping a live spreadsheet of what's urgent, what can wait, where stuff is and I'll log in to pop my out of office on so they aren't fielding emails all day. I try and be a decent member of the team and mindful of others, my child will always be my priority though of course.

I do sympathise with your position and I'm not trying to make a point about your specific situation, but I think it's quite telling that as an example of giving, you've come up with "I make it easier for others to cover for me".

If workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility. And of course, the less they pay their employees, the less likely it is that it will be financially viable for parents to use expensive holiday childcare.

I weirdly appreciate the bald honesty of this, because this is exactly how my workplace thinks. Their only concern is whether or not they want to retain parents. There is no concern about losing workers who aren't parents, because they've been given no flexibility. It's as if parents are the only ones with any value or experience - which (and I'm donning my hard hat here) is ironic, because where I work the parents have generally spent more time out of the office than their childless counterparts, what with multiple maternity leaves and then working basically part time hours for full time pay.

@Glassofshloer but you are saying that. When I was single parent I had to leave a job and decline jobs because or didn't suit with the kids. I didn't take them and then demand every Christmas off.

Everyone has emergencies. But knowing you don't have childcare over Christmas so expecting every Christmas off isnt an emergency.

Very few people can actually name how they support their colleagues who are having an emergency. Not even if those colleagues have kids which is very telling. If you expect people to jump in an support parents as a priority all the time, then you are expecting them to get the shitry end of the stick

A few twats in this thread have said it. Lots of posters have given examples where people have said these things in RL or thrown strops when they can't. There's examples of people working every Christmas for years and then parents kicking off because they get one off.

Its what the thread is about.

@Darkpheonix but unless they have the power to sign off their own leave, then surely the issue lies with the management? And this is a case of general twattery like the child free lady example I used?