AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

I think it is an angry thread, in part because it’s still seen as acceptable (look at the poll figures) to treat childless workers less favourably than those with children. People get upset when it’s talked about because it’s seen as misogynistic not to support women in the workplace, or not in keeping with #bekind, to important to the mental well-being of future generations, etc etc etc.

I am angry about it, because I work in a place where I’m being paid the same as people who do school runs twice a day, never work outside 9-5, never work weekends, never work Christmas, have priority over summer leave, and never provide emergency cover. They argue that they need this because they need flexibility and my employer is scared of a discrimination claim. This stuff breeds resentment, and I’ve had 15 years of it!

@stayathomer
Parents shouldn't be treated differently and I'm so sorry any of you have had the 'but I have kids' thing thrown at you, that's not fair but ... I dont know, this is just such an angry thread ...

You appear to be blaming childless people for it being angry? Have you actually read some of the crap childless people have had to put up with. This is just another example of 'be kind' being trotted out in only one direction

Some of the replies on this thread are staggering.

I especially love that being a parent is apparently now a protected characteristic. Wrong! Being pregnant or on maternity is a protected characteristic.

"Not having the holiday leave you want because you can't find childcare and your selfish childless/free colleagues are using the leave to do their own plans instead" isn't discrimination...

Should we have better working culture generally in the UK for parents? Yeah, 100%. I work directly on raising awareness of how flexible working, job sharing, and parent-friendly workplaces are important, and will positively impact women especially.

Employers should do better. But that should not include disadvantaging people without children.

YANBU. Nice to consider colleagues too. Even if no kids there could be a flight home to family. But I was temping last year one was bit grabby about the days off. Then other girls had take what was left!

Ok bringing up 2 dc while working I’ve had this kind of attitude from colleagues pulling faces when asking for annual leave /emergency time off even though fuck all to do with them .
I’ve always booked school holidays weeks or months in advance so first come first served no way would I ever request time off short notice unless it was a absolute emergency and I could count that on one hand over the years . Yes I’ve been late but god have I made up for it and I’d have to be on deaths door to take time off for illness . I just wish people would cut others some slack at times especially some female colleagues . There are lazy cf co workers amongst us all but fucking hell if we have to go home because a child is ill we feel shit as it is if we’re working well the other 365 days why does it matter and why do others give a shit ? Honestly op your attitude is disappointing.

@gettingolderandgrumpy

Ok bringing up 2 dc while working I’ve had this kind of attitude from colleagues pulling faces when asking for annual leave /emergency time off even though fuck all to do with them . I’ve always booked school holidays weeks or months in advance so first come first served no way would I ever request time off short notice unless it was a absolute emergency and I could count that on one hand over the years . Yes I’ve been late but god have I made up for it and I’d have to be on deaths door to take time off for illness . I just wish people would cut others some slack at times especially some female colleagues . There are lazy cf co workers amongst us all but fucking hell if we have to go home because a child is ill we feel shit as it is if we’re working well the other 365 days why does it matter and why do others give a shit ? Honestly op your attitude is disappointing.

OP hasn't mentioned needing to leave work if a child is ill, or being late, or taking time off for your own illness, though? Or taking parental leave unexpectedly for an ill child, which is not the same thing as booking holiday.

I doubt anyone in their right mind would begrudge their colleagues time off for illness of a dependent/an emergency situation, and OP said nothing of the sort.

She said parents shouldn't get priority for things like Christmas, and she's right.

so is yours @gettingolderandgrumpy

No female colleagues do not especially have to cut parents slack, female colleagues without children are not there to pick up the slack either

All colleagues, male and female, should support all colleagues, parents and childless, to the best of their abilities.

Female childless colleagues are not there to especially 'be kind'

@gettingolderandgrumpy

If you're talking about taking emergency leave then that's clearly not what OP was talking about.

Not sure why you mentioned annual leave... Are you talking about booking annual leave last-minute/the day before to care for a sick child, and someone else is also inexplicably booking very last-minute annual leave? If so, and you were prioritised because you had a child who was ill, then your colleagues would possibly have no grounds to be annoyed because either a) it's first come first served or b) if your employer refused your annual leave but said you'd have to take it as unpaid/parental leave, then your colleagues' annual leave may be refused on staffing grounds which is reasonable. And as it would be so last minute I assume nobody would be able to reasonably pull their face at being told no, even if it is annoying.

But if you've had colleagues pulling their face at you for booking ordinary annual leave then maybe have a think why... did you get first choice on dates cos you have kids? Always get dibs on dates that fall in summer holidays/half term, or Christmas? Colleagues told they now can't have X dates cos you've requested it and you have kids and it's half term? These have all happened to me or my husband. Cos if so... yeah, I'd be pissed off too. That's what OP is talking about.

I’ve seen be kind roughly eleven million times on this thread and asked for examples of when being king works in reverse - i.e. what parents do to “give”, given they keep saying it’s about give and take. Haven’t had one answer yet (except for the classic “you’ll get your turn” and some vague muttering about how they don’t personally take the piss, they do ALL the hours they’re paid to do even…!)

I never said they have to pick up the slack and I said that that it should be first come first served as I’ve always done but sometimes employers go well we need to check what everyone wants to do at Christmas first . Why ? I’ve asked first sorry if we ask the rest of my child free colleagues If they’d like Christmas off when they hadn’t even thought about it but I have in September so I can sort childcare. Sorry but I’ve done all this for years and people with no children always feel hard done by only because they’ve got to December and gone hang on I’d like to be off now it’s not fair just because you have children . If you’ve booked the time off first no issue. And please when did I even say be kind ? .

@AudacityBaby for me it's swings and roundabouts?

I've worked for this company for 15 years. I came in as a junior doing my professional exams and I'm now Associate director. I've done years of working many more hours than I got paid for, for babysitting the office when senior directors were networking and doing the less popular days over holidays etc.

I've got two young children and so I don't have the same desire to spend 10+ hours a day in the office when I'm only contracted to work 7.5hrs a day. I don't want to work all through christmas now, and quite honestly I think that's reasonable. I have said to our next generation board that I think the company need to review their policy with working over xmas - we are not needed to be physically in the office in my role, it's only a bunch of older management who think it's necessary. I'm pushing that no one be in the office over xmas. I'm happy to have my phone on, to be on call, to share the load but I don't think it is conducive for anyone in my team to be in the office - after almost 2 years, we have home working nailed on here.

It shouldn't be an "us and them". I've been the child free younger employee and I've never resented my team who needed to take specific time off. I think if you're invested in your team, you can be flexible for eachother to a certain extent.

@gettingolderandgrumpy

Ifs its the process that your company checks what everyone wants at Christmas and allocated that fairly, then you asking about christmas in september is just you being a nightmare to your manager, not that your childless (or probably other colleagues with children) havent thought about Christmas, they are following the procedure.

Out of interest, if all your childless colleagues booked Christmas off in August, so when you piped up in September you couldnt get any time off, you would be fine with that, right? Following your logic of course.

@gettingolderandgrumpy I think if you’ve had every Christmas off for years then I’m not surprised your colleagues are pulling faces.

You didn’t say he kind, you said cut some slack - whatever, it’s the same variant on the same theme i.e. childless workers need to gracefully accept that they’re lesser.

@gettingolderandgrumpy

I never said they have to pick up the slack and I said that that it should be first come first served as I’ve always done but sometimes employers go well we need to check what everyone wants to do at Christmas first . Why ? I’ve asked first sorry if we ask the rest of my child free colleagues If they’d like Christmas off when they hadn’t even thought about it but I have in September so I can sort childcare. Sorry but I’ve done all this for years and people with no children always feel hard done by only because they’ve got to December and gone hang on I’d like to be off now it’s not fair just because you have children . If you’ve booked the time off first no issue. And please when did I even say be kind ? .

Do you book Christmas off every year?

I think it's very fair of your employers to check that leave at a popular time wasn't being monopolised by one person.

I mentioned way upthread that we have an employee who booked Christmas off every year for 4 years (he has a now-5 and 8 year old), booked by May/June. So when the other member of the team requested Christmas off in say, September (still plenty of notice) they were told no. This seems reasonable because he booked it off first, right?

But it meant nobody else got a look-in - people whose plans for Christmas might develop a bit closer to the time - unless they got their request for Christmas annual leave in before him early in the year, which if it continued would have just led to a ridiculous standoff of people trying to book it 18 months in advance/the second holiday allowances reset.

So they did exactly that the next year, booked it in advance of him, and he fucking sulked about it - "I've got small children, I book it every year with plenty of notice on purpose" and he got told, they beat you to it. But I could tell he was pissed off - despite having had 4 in a row.

When he came to me in the first week of January this year requesting Christmas off, I granted it and said that it was fine as it was his turn this year, but next year it was his colleagues' first dibs to make it fair. And that is fair - otherwise you'd have some fucker hovering over the email request at the stroke of midnight on New Year's Eve trying to outdo each other. He's still mad about it, but his Christmas with the kids doesn't trump anyone else's Christmas.

@fakereview

Well yeah, if you choose a nursery that’s closed on days you work of course you need to organise that in advance! Whether that’s sourcing a babysitter or nanny and saving up to pay for that or organising childcare with someone you know

I am not sure "choice" really comes into it. Most childcare does not operate between Christmas and New year. My son's childminder took that week off.

I’ve worked for plenty of private nurseries that open right back up on Boxing Day or the day after. And if yours doesn’t, then you need to hire a babysitter who is available those days. Or get a job that doesn’t require you on those days. It’s not anyone else’s problem to be quite blunt.

@Bunnycat101

Christmas should be fair unless there are specific caring responsibilities. Eg, single parents might struggle to cover the 27th if nurseries and holiday clubs are closed. Many people will want to be travelling to see family regardless of whether they have children or not.

summer holidays have never actually been an issue in any workplace I’ve been in because vast majority of child free people don’t tend to want to be off in the school holidays. Christmas and then Easter tend to be more of a pinch point.

But those parents have a year to get coverage for the 27th.

Failing to do so is inexcusable

@trappedsincesundaymorn

I don’t think wanting to visit a parent or friend quite compares to wanting to spend some time with your child

My "child" is late 20's, I haven't seen her since August due to work schedules and distance. I would love to spend some time with her at Christmas, but she is working at a tourist attraction where some of those parents who deem time with their children is paramount, will be going. It sucks that this is our 3rd Christmas apart and our time together is not seen as worthy by people like you.

And the irony is that your daughter will remember it, but small children will have tiny fragments of memories of this Christmas if at all.

@Sitchervice

When I was child free I always let the people with kids have their holidays. My mother who was a nurse use to go to work crying on Christmas day because she couldn't spend it with us as her child free Co workers took that time off before she even had a chance.

Really? I'm not sure nursing was the best choice for her in that case. People don't stop being ill because it's Christmas, surely she must have known that she'd be required to work over this period?

My DM was a care assistant before she retrained. She never went to work 'crying' on Christmas Day - she had pound signs in her eyes due to the double pay! Double pay for DM meant treats for me in January!

I suspect it's a supply-demand issue in many cases.

I work in a job where I can take most holidays off or work flexibly from home. It's not hugely well-paid but I'm not particularly interested in moving to a different job that pays more if it means I lose that flexibility. I know people who work in better-paid jobs with zero flexibility and they hire holiday nannies (at least the very well-paid ones!) or use holiday childcare.

If workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility. And of course, the less they pay their employees, the less likely it is that it will be financially viable for parents to use expensive holiday childcare.

*for me it's swings and roundabouts?

I've worked for this company for 15 years. I came in as a junior doing my professional exams and I'm now Associate director. I've done years of working many more hours than I got paid for, for babysitting the office when senior directors were networking and doing the less popular days over holidays etc*

It sounds like that was for your benefit (career progression) or the benefit of the company rather than the ‘give’ in ‘give and take’ with your childfree colleagues, though.

if workplaces want to retain parents, the more flexibility they offer (including as to when holiday can be taken), the more likely they are to do so, even if the flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers. If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility

Funny isn’t it, that if someone suggested an employer considering someone’s parental status at interview and using it to decide whether or not to offer them a job, (deciding perhaps that someone who wanted flexibility to do school runs, attend parent teacher meetings, go to assemblies, sports days, nativity plays, be available for pick up at short notice etc was maybe not the reliable consistent employee they wanted) there’d be an outcry but once a parent is in the job they want their circumstances considered and taken into account and to be given preferential treatment ‘even if that flexibility comes at the expense of child-free workers’.

If they don't really care about losing workers who are parents (and their experience, then it will be much less important for them to offer flexibility.

And sometimes employers know its best to treat everyone as equals to retain the most experience. Retaining parents isn't a priority. Retaining people is. Prioritising one group often means losing more experience. I wouldn't want to retain someone who insists they should be a priority and gets arsey when they aren't or tries to guilt others into making them the priority. Because I would be likely to lose more staff over all.

and I said that that it should be first come first served as I’ve always done but sometimes employers go well we need to check what everyone wants to do at Christmas first . Why ? I’ve asked first sorry if we ask the rest of my child free colleagues If they’d like Christmas off when they hadn’t even thought about it but I have in September so I can sort childcare.

And if the first come first served meant yiu always missed out? I think you are missing the obvious, in this situation.

People hadn't made their plans for tome off until September because they knew how their employer worked it. They didn't Nedd to engage in 'I booked it first'. If the employers sorts Christmas out in September, why would they try and book it in June?

There seems to be an assumption on your part that you should get it first, because you knew your plans first. Maybe you didn't, but other people knew it was sorted later in the year so had no desire to verbalise their Christmas plans on May. If that's how the employer does it, that's how they do it. They don't have to chabge a system because it suits you better.

@sammylady37

I agree 100%. I was basically burned alive after making a flippant comment on a thread that the likely reason the op hadn’t been hired was because she was a mum and the other colleague was child free and therefore more likely to be flexible. I was told I was outside the law/prejudiced/discriminatory etc. But realistically (judging by this thread anyway) some parents seem to think they’re entitled to a workplace that bends over backwards for them, when they don’t want to give anything back.

@AudacityBaby

I’ve seen be kind roughly eleven million times on this thread and asked for examples of when being king works in reverse - i.e. what parents do to “give”, given they keep saying it’s about give and take. Haven’t had one answer yet (except for the classic “you’ll get your turn” and some vague muttering about how they don’t personally take the piss, they do ALL the hours they’re paid to do even…!)

To be honest holidays aren't hotly contested where I work so no one is overly doing much giving. The one way being a parent affects my work is I'm more likely to be off unexpectedly last minute, ie when I've been in hospital with my child. I make it as easy as possible for the team by keeping a live spreadsheet of what's urgent, what can wait, where stuff is and I'll log in to pop my out of office on so they aren't fielding emails all day. I try and be a decent member of the team and mindful of others, my child will always be my priority though of course.

To be honest holidays aren't hotly contested where I work so no one is overly doing much giving. The one way being a parent affects my work is I'm more likely to be off unexpectedly last minute, ie when I've been in hospital with my child. I make it as easy as possible for the team by keeping a live spreadsheet of what's urgent, what can wait, where stuff is and I'll log in to pop my out of office on so they aren't fielding emails all day. I try and be a decent member of the team and mindful of others, my child will always be my priority though of course.

That’s not really you giving. Not in the reciprocal way people mean. That’s just you making it easier for them to help you.

What people mean is when does this flexibility that so many think parents are entitled to benefit the child free colleagues?