AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

@Sitchervice

When I was child free I always let the people with kids have their holidays. My mother who was a nurse use to go to work crying on Christmas day because she couldn't spend it with us as her child free Co workers took that time off before she even had a chance.

I call bull on this. My SIL is a nurse and it’s a rota for who is working Christmas and she’s worked in 4 different hospitals so far and it’s the same in them all. She knew training for the job she would have to work some Christmas’s and still understands that now she has children. I highly doubt every year of your mothers entire career she worked all of Christmas as the evil childless people always got it off.

@DeepaBeesKit

Really @VashtaNerada our species is not going to die out anytime soon! In fact, if we skip a generation or so it would be good for the planet

..... and our economy would be completely fucked. Ageing population with a missing generation of workers? No thank you. Please go and do some reading as to why this would cause catastrophe.

@DeepaBeesKit It's only ONE generation skipped. The economy won't suffer that much. There will also be less people so less demand. So it will even out.

The problem with term time contracts is that the work doesn’t just go away in the holidays, it still has to be done but by less people. Which is why it’s not offered much anymore.

I am child free. Where I work we do a Christmas rota, we all put in what we want and then if cover is needed volunteers are asked for. You get most of what you want off usually and only have to cover the odd day.

For other holidays and half terms it’s first come first served. And if I want time off and it happens to be in the school holidays I’ll book it. I don’t actively seek out time off then but if something is happening and that time is available I’ll take it. My birthday is always in a half term and there have been times I couldn’t take it off due to that week being busy for people on leave. Next year it’s my 40th in half term so I got in early and have already booked it off as I plan to go away. If that means someone in my team with kids can’t have that week off it’s kind of tough.

We usually allow 3 people off at a time I think, my manager would probably allow someone to be off on top of that if they really couldn’t get childcare. But I don’t think that’s ever happened in the 10+ years I’ve been in the team.

I’d always try and accommodate colleagues if they really couldn’t get childcare but no parents should not be given priority to book leave.

Image been in the workforce for not quite thirty years, don’t have children and I honestly cannot remember ever feeling disadvantaged or as if my leave requests were not as important as somebody else’s.

So whilst I definitely think OP is NBU to say that parents should not get priority, I have also fortunately never found that they have. I guess a caveat is that I don’t want to take leave during the summer or half term and it has usually worked out well that I am happy to man the fort during those times.

But I would be very aggrieved if I were told I could not take leave at Christmas. A single person or couple might be slightly more likely to be travelling to others for Christmas and need the leave, or end up spending Christmas alone.

monotonousmum
Totally out of context. Only half of that text is mine, and completely disregards what I said about requesting time off if needed.

My reply/quote was about your comment 'Can't imagine many people would be unhappy about this anyway'; there are plenty of people on here who ARE, and who say why.

• I have not “image”.

I wish there was an edit function!

@DeepaBeesKit

We absolutely need to have better childcare available - that is the answer

This just adds in yet more people (who may have children of their own) who then also need to work over festive periods etc. it actually exacerbates the problem in most cases.

Which is exactly why skipping a generation would help.

@AudacityBaby

Where I work, parents of young children get priority, and have done for as long as I've been here. There's lots of cheery "it'll be your turn one day!" - they don't know I'm infertile. I have tried to suggest alternative systems but apparently what used to happen when there was a rota is that parents would just harass other people for a shift swap, and if that didn't work, they'd either call in sick or go to HR. My workplace is scared shitless of being on the receiving end of a discrimination claim, so this kind of entitled behaviour is absolutely rife.

I'm utterly sick of it. I'm single and my only family live 350 miles away. Arguably I think I need the "family time" more than someone who literally lives with their family 365 days per year, but naturally as I do not have a working reproductive system I do not count.

That's disgusting. If your company had a clear rota, a robust sickness management system and a firm policy of not hassling colleagues about swapping, they wouldn't need to be scared of discrimination claims. Wonder what they'd say to a civil claim of distress caused by cheery assumptions of your reproductive status...

@BeardyButton

I don’t care about the parents. It’s not the parents that are getting preferential treatment. It’s the children!!!!!

Children in some societies do better than in others. Some societies are more focused on child well being. This generally means - investment in education, child care, shared parental leave etc.

But in other societies, children are not the focus. So you get under investment in the above.

When it comes to this thread.... imagine not thinking from a child’s point of view about parents holidays during school holidays. Of course, parents should get priority - chn deserve to spend time with parents. We should work for a society that supports that time.

Growing up my dad was in the police , is often wasn't there on Christmas day or part of it.

It was really OK. My friend is a Midwife. She can't always be there for alot of the holidays or Christmas morning. But unless women stop giving birthday on certain dates and months, she will have to work.

Again, her kids are fine.

I can't see anyone suggesting parents should be banned from having any time off with their kids.

Do you think working people don't spend time with their kids, during term time? Or other school holidays?

Oh, I worked in a team where this was a thing - only our line manager had a child (well, two, but one was an adult). Every school holiday he would disappear to provide the childcare - despite their being three other adults in his house, it was essential I did not take any leave during school holidays - a fact only told to me after I had started there.

To really rub salt in the wound he'd then come back to work and claim he had been WFH despite not answer emails, calls, and none of his team being aware he was working from home - he never mentioned this at all.

The organisation is going to the dogs, and whilst it is going to suck for many many people - it's behaviour like this is the reason why.

People make personal choices/decisions- like having children or not- and no one else should have to suffer because of those choices.

If you choose to have children it should have no impact at all on Christmas period staffing rotas. You should be as available as anyone else. Most people would enjoy Christmas Day at home but it should be done on a rota basis- no one has it more than anyone else.

Just stating a fact here.... (no kids 50-something here) I have been on call and worked, 17 of the past 20 Christmases, because we have a 4 week cycle of on call, and it's always me on the 3rd week of the cycle, so I always got it.
I hate Christmas so I never really minded, until suddenly, 2 years ago I decided I'd quite like Christmas off, after doing 16 of the 18 up to then.
OMG, those with kids you'd have thought I wanted personally to go round and pee on their Christmas dinner! There was a huge hoo-ha, tantrums thrown and I agreed to the "one last Christmas" and then we'd have a fair rota system.
Fast forward to last year when, the boss had done NOTHING about this despite being asked to and I was told 2 weeks before Christmas I was yet again working and on call because those with kids had "got plans".
What about MY plans? I went to my mum's for Christmas dinner (hadn't been in her house since Feb due to Covid) and got called out halfway through Christmas dinner. Yay.

Finally, another child-free person has volunteered to do Christmas day this year (I used to do the whole week, inc New years eve if it fell in that week).

And while I am on a rant.....why can most big companies give 2 weeks carer leave for those with kids, but if you have adult caring responsibilities - say after a partner or parent has surgery - no can do?
I have never been able to get any carer's leave yet others with kids take 2 weeks paid every year?
Preparing to get flamed for this but those of us child free get the last of everything and are expected to take up the slack .
Not every parent does this (and I am pleased to see many on here don't think those with children should take priority)
I just want a fair crack of the whip tbh, I'm tired of always being the one who fills the gaps for no thanks or reward.

We absolutely need to have better childcare available - that is the answer

We do need better childcare. Bit that won't solve the issue. Many parents do have childcare, either partners or family.....or in my case don't accept jobs that don't have a Christmas close down. Which has its own impacts.

They want these times off because they view their want to be at home with their family as more important because their family consists of their own kids. They have decided that if you have kids then Christmas is mainly for you.

Imporved childcare, will not stop those people still trying to insist their Christmas is more important.

@NollaigNollaig Sitchervice said when she was a child, so that could be like, 20 or 30 years ago, so probably things were done differently back then, to how they are now.

@RobotValkyrie

Parent VS child-free is a dumb way to look at it.

Employers have a legal duty to consider protected characteristics when dealing with such matters. That include things like disabilities, whether someone is a carer (e.g. for an older relative), and yes, whether someone has children to look after.
I repeat: employers have a legal duty to consider the needs of all their employees, and discuss reasonable adjustments accordingly. That can include flexiwork, paid or unpaid leave, and first dibs on certain holiday slots. Whether you think it's "fair" or not is neither here nor there. You're not an employer, and you're not HR. Not your call to make.

Protected characteristics as I understand them, please link to where having kids is listed as one.

age
disability
gender reassignment
marriage and civil partnership
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation

@HelenRose1111
Have you ever suggested a half shift? You work until lunch so they get presents time with little kids and you get dinner with folks?

But I do agree it's not right for you never to get Christmas day off.

@JazzyBBG

Hmmm on the fence here as a parent, you have to accept to a degree that people will want that time off at certain ages. Equally as someone who pays for a lot of childcare in holidays it shouldn't be all the time. But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off! I'd be avoiding it like the plague ;)

Most music and film festivals happen in the summer holidays…

@Beautiful3

I think companies should allow parents to switch to a term time only contract. Avoiding the whole annual leave being needed for holidays. I had to leave my job as I needed to be around in the holidays, and couldn't afford 2 lots of child care during them. More parents would be in work, if term time contracts were allowed.

How many could afford the financial hit and it doesn’t just move the burden of working those hours to the childless/child free?

How you’re going to manage childcare over holiday periods should be a factor in your family planning decisions. Organise your own life. You can’t expect your colleagues to accommodate your choices. As it happens I prefer to take holidays in term time but that may change when grandchildren come along and if it does I’ll expect equal opportunities without any need for justification.

@BeardyButton

I don’t care about the parents. It’s not the parents that are getting preferential treatment. It’s the children!!!!!

Children in some societies do better than in others. Some societies are more focused on child well being. This generally means - investment in education, child care, shared parental leave etc.

But in other societies, children are not the focus. So you get under investment in the above.

When it comes to this thread.... imagine not thinking from a child’s point of view about parents holidays during school holidays. Of course, parents should get priority - chn deserve to spend time with parents. We should work for a society that supports that time.

I take a job for its pay and benefits, not to support society. So I don't want less perks based on my home life.

@PinkTonic we have someone at work who was given a term time working contract when her kids were small...it was before I worked there so I don't know the history of why she is the only one with this arrangement. They are both at Uni now and she refuses to change it as she likes having all the holidays off!

@RobotValkyrie

Parent VS child-free is a dumb way to look at it.

Employers have a legal duty to consider protected characteristics when dealing with such matters. That include things like disabilities, whether someone is a carer (e.g. for an older relative), and yes, whether someone has children to look after.
I repeat: employers have a legal duty to consider the needs of all their employees, and discuss reasonable adjustments accordingly. That can include flexiwork, paid or unpaid leave, and first dibs on certain holiday slots. Whether you think it's "fair" or not is neither here nor there. You're not an employer, and you're not HR. Not your call to make.

Employers are nor obliged to let parents have first pick of holidays. Do they be ridiculous.

Clearly you aren't an employer or HR, either.

@julieca exactly. It's bonkers that someone believes that when I want time off for any reason, I'm supposed to consider the feelings of someone else's kids who most likely I've never even met ?!

I think it’s sensible to give priority to parents of young children in school holidays. Most parents use a combination of holiday clubs, childminders and annual leave to cover holidays and half terms, why shouldn’t they take some annual leave to spend time with their children? It’s hard enough working FT and managing a young family without being told you can’t use some of your leave in school holidays.

Other parents may not be able to afford full childcare fees the entire school holiday and end up leaving their job. Bosses have to be sympathetic to individual needs, especially in jobs like healthcare where qualified staff are leaving in droves. Many nurses, doctors, physios, cleaners, HCAs, kitchen assistants and allied health professionals balance work with the demands of a young family. The NHS is promoted as being family friendly and offering flexible working or term time only contracts to parents.

Likewise, if a person without children wanted a particular week off in term time or school holidays (partner’s birthday, dog having surgery, a holiday, caring responsibility, house move etc) it would be kind and sensible of the team to try and accommodate their wishes.

If parents start only working term times, in jobs that are all year round. They will also lose out in a lot of career progression. They will be missing for about 13 weeks a year.

And, as usual, it will be usually women who do the term time working, damaging their career more.

You can't expect to not be in work for a quarter of the year, but not fall behind. Especially if you are missing for 6 weeks in summer.

@senorafridgidaire Yes exactly. I will always help people when they have genuine issues. But wanting to spend time with kids is a want. Just as some want to spend holidays with nieces and nephews or grandchildren.