AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

@VashtaNerada

I also find the reasoning “well you chose to have children” laughable. Reproduction is a fairly basic part of humanity, and without it the species is fucked. It’s not like it’s some mad hobby a few of us have chosen on a whim. We’ll all need the next generation when we’re old FFS!

Really @VashtaNerada our species is not going to die out anytime soon! In fact, if we skip a generation or so it would be good for the planet. We are over-populated as it is. I'd like to see an encouragement for people get get sterilised or not procreate for say 20 years, to get the population level considerably down. And less people means less demand for resources. Many of our problems would sort themselves out if we skipped breeding for a generation at least.

There's usually a bit of a balance because if you didn't have kids, why would you want to have holidays in the school hols when everything is more expensive and crowded? It's not as if the whole summer is a no no for non-parents, but it would be odd to looking for a fortnight to spend with other people's young families.
But at Xmas everyone wants the time off. I'd work round a colleague who had little "Christmas aged" kids if i could

You know I genuinely don't mind and didn't mind when I was childfree covering when someone had a genuine childcare issue.

But what I can't stand, and has been said already on this thread, is the whole "oh but Christmas is so special for the children especially years 1-10, you don't want to miss that".

I think that's bullshit, and no I don't think a parent should get 9 years of Christmas leave over someone else because they don't want to miss their children's Christmas. A childfree colleague may not want to miss their Christmas with their family. Neither is more important.

So if someone came to be genuinely stuck for childcare I'd probably agree, if someone came to me with this "oh but it's more special with children" crap I'd say sorry nope.

@Rhythmisadancer

There's usually a bit of a balance because if you didn't have kids, why would you want to have holidays in the school hols when everything is more expensive and crowded? It's not as if the whole summer is a no no for non-parents, but it would be odd to looking for a fortnight to spend with other people's young families. But at Xmas everyone wants the time off. I'd work round a colleague who had little "Christmas aged" kids if i could

People have given several examples of why.

Personally dh and I were only too pleased when we could finally take leave and go away outside school holidays - fewer crowds and cheaper!

Weather is generally better in June/early July rather than English school holidays... so pre kids we definitely didn't want school holidays off... Also very much like late/early season holidays to the med/canaries over peak season (way too hot for me in August!).

I'd have the most sympathy about time between Christmas and New Year as most childcare is closed and would expect a couple to share those days so both would need some time off - obviously an issue for single parents though.

I think where holidays have to be carefully scheduled and allocated to employees then its good/nice to allocate the school holiday time to parents, and those without children allocated to non holiday time. Can't imagine many people would be unhappy about this anyway - I'd much rather go on a child free holiday outside of school holiday time!

But...if someone requests time off during school holidays it shouldn't be denied based on whether or not they have kids.

I'm a manager and would never deny a request based on whether someone was a parent or not. My team have to be 'available' to work every other Christmas, but we only need a couple of staff to cover that week so it's likely most people can get every Christmas off if they want to.
School holidays...its mostly those with kids that book this time, and those that haven't its usually just long weekends etc.

What I've seen though (other companies/departments) is those without kids complaining they can't get any time off during holidays because it's all been booked by parents already. Never come across a company that refuses requests where the dates haven't already been booked.

I don’t have kids. But I go on holiday with family members including children.

I have spent the last two years being told how lucky I am that I don’t have to home school, so lucky me I got to work 18 hour days to cover for people who were gone schooling.

I know it wasn’t their fault but now the kids are back at school I am still covering because they need to nip out for half an hour twice a day to do the school run.

Working from home saves parents a fortune on child care and I think it’s great people are getting a better work life balance. But you can’t work and care for young children.

There is a balance to be struck, and childless/free and parents both need to understand life from each other’s perspectives.

Employers also should ensure that everyone is treated equally and the flexibility offered to parents is also extended to non parents. We all have personal lives

I don’t care about the parents. It’s not the parents that are getting preferential treatment. It’s the children!!!!!

Children in some societies do better than in others. Some societies are more focused on child well being. This generally means - investment in education, child care, shared parental leave etc.

But in other societies, children are not the focus. So you get under investment in the above.

When it comes to this thread.... imagine not thinking from a child’s point of view about parents holidays during school holidays. Of course, parents should get priority - chn deserve to spend time with parents. We should work for a society that supports that time.

Having children is a choice - no one is forced to have to have them and when making that decision factors such as childcare, working and likely holidays would/should be discussed. Yes circumstances change for everyone but that is not your employers responsibility. It’s interesting that people would be up in arms if asked at interview about whether they have kids and their childcare (me included) as they feel they would be discriminated against but once in post expect the manager to give them priority due to childcare needs. As a rule - parents should not have priority. First come first served is a good general practice except at Christmas, Easter etc. Where a rota works best. As for keeping women in the workplace - while I agree this needs further thought (and my own experience is challenging in this regard), priority over annual leave would not help in the long term as the child-free would leave to somewhere they could actually have a Christmas off and so there would be an even bigger divide. Child free people pay taxes to educate and support children, they also pay into their own pensions and will pay (have paid) for the services they need in old age. People don’t have kids for the benefit of society, that have kids because they want them and that comes with consequences (which is why some people choose not to have them).

The responses on this thread are so sad. Shows how little regard chn are held in the UK.

I have never worked anywhere that gives parents preferential treatment, its always first come first served.

Totally agree. It should be on a fairly based rota. Who works last year should get this year off etc. I don't have children( can't have them) but one year we decided to do a huge xmas everyone come to our house. I booked my holidays early as the way it was in my workplace - xmas eve was one of them. Got pulled in two days before xmas eve asking can i come in as the lovely whatsherface who covered when i was off wanted the time off and that as she had children my boss said she got preferential over me. I lost it with him , i had 40 people coming for dinner xmas day and had asked for xmas eve off so i could prepare for it along with my partner. And that i had put my holiday request in time and it had been approved. Even more annoying she didn't come to me to talk about it (which we would have come to a compromise) she went straight to the boss with wheepy tears etc There was no reasoning with them and i ended coming in for half the day xmas eve. Shortly in the new year i found a new job and handed in my notice, explained to HR that this was one of the reasons i was leaving. They didn't value that i needed time off as does everyone else. I now work for a company that shuts down for two weeks in summer and a week at xmas so there is no issue with cover required etc. No issues when i want to take time of either - just make sure my work is done which is fair enough in my opinion

if you didn't have kids, why would you want to have holidays in the school hols when everything is more expensive and crowded?

I think where holidays have to be carefully scheduled and allocated to employees then its good/nice to allocate the school holiday time to parents, and those without children allocated to non holiday time. Can't imagine many people would be unhappy about this anyway - I'd much rather go on a child free holiday outside of school holiday time!
Several posters have explained their reasons as to why this assumption should not be made.

@BeardyButton

I don’t care about the parents. It’s not the parents that are getting preferential treatment. It’s the children!!!!!

Children in some societies do better than in others. Some societies are more focused on child well being. This generally means - investment in education, child care, shared parental leave etc.

But in other societies, children are not the focus. So you get under investment in the above.

When it comes to this thread.... imagine not thinking from a child’s point of view about parents holidays during school holidays. Of course, parents should get priority - chn deserve to spend time with parents. We should work for a society that supports that time.

Won't someone think of the children...

We should work for a society that supports EVERYONE as fairly as possible.
Would you really say 'Of course, parents should get priority' to someone who has been unable to have, or has lost, children?

@BeardyButton

The responses on this thread are so sad. Shows how little regard chn are held in the UK.

That’s an interesting perspective. It’s not how I see it.

We should have good quality affordable childcare which is accessible to working parents. I don’t think anyone on this thread has argued against that.

If people work in an industry where working over holidays is expected it’s unfair for them to not do their fair share simply because they have children. We are all paid the same to work the same hours.

Employers should absolutely be flexible where they can, and many people including myself will offer to cover to allow parents time at Christmas. But it’s not fair that non parents should take on extra burdens in the work place to allow parents extra time off.

We absolutely need to have better childcare available - that is the answer. Not expecting others to work extra hours to cover.

I spent years working for a manager who insisted that Christmas was for families, and those of us without kids were put down to work all over Christmas Day, Boxing Day and the days between off, but given New Years' Eve and Day off, with the idea that when we had kids it would be our turn. When some of us had kids, she changed departments and our turn never came!

DH works in a field where Christmas Day and weekend working is an unavoidable thing. Totally stuffs up my ability to work in certain sectors because we don't have local family (and grandparents are too old and now too paranoid about Covid to be remotely reliable for even occasional planned weekends).

Either way the rota for Christmas in his industry is generally shared depending on different needs/ wants of those involved. Generally younger single people working away from parental homes want a decent chunk of time to travel home which might not necessarily be actual Christmas itself but sometime in the festive period - travelling on peak sucks... Older people with local family (or big houses) wanted to work scattered individual days over the festive period (and might just invent call outs to escape the in-laws for an hour or 2...)

Ime this is rarely an issue in most workplaces. Christmas is the biggest pinch point in the UK, my experience has been that people in those occupations that do work it (mainly hospitality & emergency services) know there will be a christmas rota and accept they will be on it sometimes.

Most other workplaces close over Christmas day as a minimum.

In terms of other school holiday periods, my experience has been that childfree people tend to choose to take leave outside school holidays anyway, as its cheaper & nicer.

I know before I had kids I consciously chose to, also for the reason that as a society which only provide schooling for children on certain weeks, it's not within parents control, therefore it's the kind thing to do to consider others needs as well as our own, its what makes us human.

YANBU

Totally agree with you

However

I always offered to work holidays like Easter or bank holiday weekends and I didn't mind being more flexible in the summer with my holiday to accommodate my colleagues who had children

I understood that these can be opportunities for family time and I think family is very important

I have a baby now, but I wouldn't expect a colleague to change what they want to accommodate me, I don't think that would be fair either. So, I agree with you OP

In an ideal world, you have everything planned and all pieces of the puzzle fit beautifully.
Then you have children, you get divorced, your partner passes away or changes jobs, your childminder suddenly quits (we had that happen on a 3-day notice, just coming from holidays and back to school) and your nicely organised world can fall apart.
To me, that means that I don't agree to automatic right of parents to have holidays during summer but I certainly wouldn't go hard-core, you have a child, sort it out yourselves. I know that the UK can be a pretty cut-throat country and empathy and understanding aren't really high priority but if we tried to look at both sides of the story, we could come to an understanding. That is for both, parents and non-parents.
When I read these conversations, there's never an agreement, it's always two sides which refuse to understand each other.

Where I work, parents of young children get priority, and have done for as long as I've been here. There's lots of cheery "it'll be your turn one day!" - they don't know I'm infertile. I have tried to suggest alternative systems but apparently what used to happen when there was a rota is that parents would just harass other people for a shift swap, and if that didn't work, they'd either call in sick or go to HR. My workplace is scared shitless of being on the receiving end of a discrimination claim, so this kind of entitled behaviour is absolutely rife.

I'm utterly sick of it. I'm single and my only family live 350 miles away. Arguably I think I need the "family time" more than someone who literally lives with their family 365 days per year, but naturally as I do not have a working reproductive system I do not count.

I think companies should allow parents to switch to a term time only contract. Avoiding the whole annual leave being needed for holidays. I had to leave my job as I needed to be around in the holidays, and couldn't afford 2 lots of child care during them. More parents would be in work, if term time contracts were allowed.

Flexible working requests are available to all not just those with children, it makes no difference whether you have children
Emergency leave is open to everyone whether it be for a sick child or your car breaking down
Working time directives apply to all
People who are carers of dependents may be eligible for extra consideration. That applies whether your dependent is a child or dependent on you for another reason. People who have an obligation to care for others are doing society a good turn as the alternative is that the state would have to provide that care.

If you have a problem with your employer you need to stick your head above the parapet and complain. Working 18 hour days is not legal. There were plenty of parents working their normal hours over lock down to the detriment of themselves and their children. That wasn’t their choice.

@IntermittentParps

if you didn't have kids, why would you want to have holidays in the school hols when everything is more expensive and crowded?

I think where holidays have to be carefully scheduled and allocated to employees then its good/nice to allocate the school holiday time to parents, and those without children allocated to non holiday time. Can't imagine many people would be unhappy about this anyway - I'd much rather go on a child free holiday outside of school holiday time!
Several posters have explained their reasons as to why this assumption should not be made.

Totally out of context. Only half of that text is mine, and completely disregards what I said about requesting time off if needed.