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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Just been kicked out of a group for objecting to being referred to as my reproductive organs

502 replies

Gerlais · 30/11/2021 15:59

Group on Facebook. I was referred to as a “uterus owner”. I objected to this. I’m now banned from the group for being transphobic. Everyone piled on me and if I wasn’t kicked out I would have been leaving anyway. I don’t care what other people want to be called but I will not be referred to as my reproductive organs!! It’s not transphobic to want to be referred to as a woman if you were in fact born female and wish to remain a woman? surely?? Or AIBU?

OP posts:
TheElementsSong · 30/11/2021 18:17

On one side, we have actual data and statistics.

On the other, we have Be Kind and Feelz and You're All Bigots!

Which to go with, it's such a dilemma! Hmm

Whatthechicken · 30/11/2021 18:18

The poll is currently at 97% for YANBU. All of you that voted YANBU get yourself over to the Feminism board. If you’re cross about being called a ‘uterus haver’, wait until you read about the ‘cotton ceiling’ and convicted rapists being put into the UK female prison population (it’s happening right now). Even if you voted the other way, still get yourself over there and debate.

MushMonster · 30/11/2021 18:18

Congratulations OP! Now you do not have to mingle with that lot!
I cannot believe this is happening in the real world. I would have deleted them all before they had the chance to exclude me.

Toseland · 30/11/2021 18:18

I find this all quite scary.
This change is huge and we are supposed to just accept this change forced upon us or be subjected to insults, threats and cancelling with no discussion or care that 51% might not like to be redefined for the pleasure of 0.06% of the population.
Scotland has removed the word ‘mother’ from its documentation!
It’s so totalitarian, I never thought I’d see this in the UK - and our leaders; politicians, the Police, corporations all blindly going along with it!
I’ve complained to my MP but I don’t get a response.
I bloody earned ‘woman’ by being an adult, human, female and putting up with all sorts over the years. I breastfed for 2.5 years and struggled; I consider that I earned the title Mother through my blood, sweat and tears and I am not a ‘chestfeeder’!

PizzaDays · 30/11/2021 18:18

@Gerlais

Even more fuming that I can’t see what they’re all saying about me now!
New name , new account and rejoin 😉
wellbehavedwomen · 30/11/2021 18:20

@Wobblyhousehunt

Admiral Caine …. Obviously men and women can be survivors of invest and rape. Should transwomen have to go to groups for male victims of incest and rape? I also believe that trans women have the highest rate of sexual assault/ violence against them out of any group.

I sometimes think people post things like this so they can have a moan, making regular people think trans women are monsters. Is this the whole story OP or are you gasslighting?

I urge every kind woman in the fence about this stuff to know that transwomen just want to be safe. They don’t want to refer to you by your body parts or any such nonsense. They have difficult hard lives please be kind. And always remember it could be your son/ daughter/ brother/ niece/ dad who comes out as trans next.

Transwomen do not have the highest rates. Transmen and lesbians do (because they are females who anger misogynist men, so they have the biological vulnerability of their sex, coupled with the social vulnerability of transgressing gender norms), and the data conflates the groups.

99% of rapists are male. 88% of victims are female, and the majority of the 12% remaining males are young boys.

If you think about it, women are so vulnerable to rape because we lack the physical strength to defend ourselves, where most men are concerned. That's just the fact - we all know this, and it's why we are so cautious in a way men aren't. I'm bemused by the perpetual insistence that something we know to be untrue, if we pause and consider, is so constantly repeated. There is no data support for transwomen's vulnerability to sexual violence once you actually look into the stats.

Transwomen are, in fact, one of the safest demographics in the country. There has never been a transwoman murdered in Scotland, and in the worst years, transwomen have around half the standard murder victimisation risk of anyone else (currently, that rate is zero - no transwomen have been killed in the last year or two, whereas women have averaged around 3 a week in domestic violence killings alone). In fact statistically, there have been more cases of transwomen murdering people than being murdered (and those stats are really low, too, I hasten to add - transwomen are more likely to kill than women are, but no more likely to do so than anyone else male).

The narrative that trans people are subjected to terrifying rates of violence and murder - in this country, at least - is a pretty abusive one. It's going to create anxiety and fear and paranoia in a group of people whose mental health levels are notably poor, and it's divorced from statistical reality. Transwomen are at risk when they're sex workers in South America, mainly. But again, not any more so than any other South American sex worker - the work, and not the identity, is the commonality of risk. All sex workers tend to suffer horrendous levels of violence (though the reality is also that trans people face discrimination in employment terms - there is good evidence for that - so potentially are more likely to fall into sex work on that basis. That aspect I would agree is potentially linked).

There is a risk to women from allowing any group of male people, however they identify, to access women's spaces. We know that there are 13500 or so men in jail for sex offences at any given time, 120-130 or so women (which includes a few transwomen with Gender Recognition Certificates) and well over 80 transwomen. Given the relative populations are 33 million, 33 million, and 100,000-200,000 it additionally supports the existing research data finding that transwomen pose the exact same risk to women as anyone else male. And why wouldn't they? Saying some words about a belief in your own mind doesn't magically alter biological reality. Most males pose no risk to anyone, but almost all those posing a risk are male. Eliminate males from shared public spaces where women are naked, sleeping or otherwise vulnerable, and you eliminate almost all risk. And transwomen are the same risk as anyone else male.

Of course transwomen want to be safe. But so do women, and having transwomen in women's spaces very provably reduces our safety. Having any male people in our spaces does that. We need third spaces, so trans people, non-binary people, opposite-sex carers and parents of opposite sex kids also have accessible provision.

And it's just not true to say language is not under attack. It is clearly, very clearly, an utter lie to claim otherwise. A friend is a midwife and her dissertation has to have 'birthing people' all the way through. Midwives are not allowed to refer to 'mothers' now. It's not inclusive, they are told. Female erasure, to include male people, is the new notion of what is inclusive.

It's unacceptable. How can we defend women's rights, if we aren't even able to use the language to do so?

I'd suggest that any women on the fence might like to read Trans. It's by a senior editor of the Economist, who breaks the whole thing down precisely, cogently and fairly.

Of course trans people deserve the protections of the Equality Act, and to be free from prejudice, discrimination and abuse. It's wrong for anyone to suffer detriment because of their gender expression. That doesn't mean that women must meekly surrender our own protections, rights, provision and even language about who we are, just because some of those within a small group of male people demand it, though. We suffer detriment not from gender expression alone, but from our biologically sexed bodies. Why should those rights and those protections be commandeered by male people, just because they say so? And why are people so relaxed about the horrific abuse meted out to any women who try to point this out?

You talk about kindness. What about kindness to women who have been raped, and want single sex counselling, or intimate examinations? What about kindness to girls getting changed communally, who don't want to find a male penis in their spaces? What about kindness to women in prison, being housed with transwomen convicted of rape? Why is it women's job to be kind to male people seen as vulnerable, and not themselves? Why is it kind to throw your most vulnerable sisters under a bus?

My kindness means I protect women who need single sex provision. It does not extend to insisting that male rapists belong in women's prisons on their say-so, and those who insist that that demand is 'kind' take my breath away.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/11/2021 18:21

@Wobblyhousehunt

It’s an echo chamber because the same group of TERFs jump on any transgender discussion, gaslight use frightening terms and swap it. You’re like a bunch of seagulls alerting the others to a crumb of bread. I’m real life trans women aren’t out raping people in toilets, they are your nephews, sons, daughters and grandchildren. They are your brother who killed himself and you never knew why.
You show yourself up there.

TERF is a term of insult. Not acceptable here.

Gaslighting doesn't mean supplying statistics from the ONS, research studies and actual facts.

In real life trans identified males are doing just that - as any swift google will show you.

And that overly emotive last bit won't wash. Emotional blackmail rarely does.

Your problem is you might have thought that AIBU wasn;t read by the same posters as post in the FWR sections. We do.. because we are normal women with many interests.

Physnicall · 30/11/2021 18:21

I saw a nutritionist refer to ‘women with wombs’ rather than plain Women on Facebook yesterday. The first comment was like wtf. But I guess that they are trying to avoid the angry puritans

RaisedByPangolins · 30/11/2021 18:22

Let’s just note the results of the poll at the moment, on AIBU attracting a random sample of posters.

Then once the TRA dog whistle has been blown let’s see how it starts to swing the other way, gets moved over to the naughty corner so that nobody else can see it and then spammed with #bekind posts.

Just so you know TRAs, you’re a tiny minority and most people don’t agree with your agenda. You’ve just made it very difficult for anyone to admit that on Twitter or in RL. Fortunately here on MN we still have a voice - even if we have to speak in our indoor voices so as not to upset anyone.

Dogmum40 · 30/11/2021 18:22

Batshittery at its finest! So when I ring my mum for a chat or pop in to visit her and my dad how am I suppose to acknowledge them “ oh hi chest feeder and sperm giver” mum and dad work absolutely fine for me thanks and I will continue to call them mum and dad (or mother and father to be posh) for the rest of my life 🤣

Appledrop · 30/11/2021 18:22

@Isthatthebestyoucando Please explain to me how transgendered people are oppressed here in the UK?

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2021 18:23

Just to mention that the use of the word TERF is offensive because it is a slur loaded with sexual violence and death threats. This website collects the examples of the threats made against women who are deemed 'terfs' - www.terfisaslur.com

But you know, be kind, right?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/11/2021 18:23

And just in case Wobblys last post gets reported my repsonse to the attempt at emotional blackmail and a stern ticking off was

You show yourself up there.

TERF is a term of insult. Not acceptable here.

Gaslighting doesn't mean supplying statistics from the ONS, research studies and actual facts.

In real life trans identified males are doing just that, raping, sexually assaulting women and girls in public toilets, schools, hospitals and prisons - as any swift google will show you.

And that overly emotive last bit won't wash. Emotional blackmail rarely does.

Your problem is you might have thought that AIBU wasn'tt read by the same posters as post in the FWR sections. We do.. because we are normal women with many interests.

cabingirl · 30/11/2021 18:25

@Waitwhat23

There is a cervical screening programme running in Scotland just now with adverts running on the major radio stations.

It doesn't mention the word woman once. It uses 'those who have a cervix' and '3 people a day' but not the word woman.

Various studies have shown that something like 45% of women don't know what a cervix is. It excludes women who don't have English as their first language, among other groups. It's not inclusive - it's exclusive. And yes, it is happening- this is just one example.

Not to men though. Prostate Cancer UK responded to a question about them using the term 'prostate havers' (or similar) saying that they didn't use that on campaign materials because it wouldn't reach everyone they wanted to reach.

It's irrelevant if the trans person you know personally is lovely. The language women use to refer to themselves is being changed against their knowledge and consent.

I am not cis (a made up, nonsensical term). I am not a cervix haver. I am a woman.

But why can't an advert like this say:

Women and those who have a cervix, and Men and those who have a prostate.

It includes the trans community people and the non-binary people who have the body part in question. It also includes those who have that body part who have not transitioned or rejected the traditional gender concept of their biological sex.

If the point of a health awareness campaign is to reach the right people, that includes everyone.

LuneyTunes · 30/11/2021 18:26

'owner' - it's bizarre, like it needs walking three times a day and regular 'maintenance' !

Wobblyhousehunt · 30/11/2021 18:26

Many of these posts show that this post is not about language it’s pure predjudice towards a vulnerable group of people. Try and mask it as AIBU but much of this is hatred. Why do you need someone to hate? You are turning decent people away from feminism.

MurielSpriggs · 30/11/2021 18:26

Group on Facebook. I was referred to as a “uterus owner”. I objected to this.

Do you mean that you were addressed directly as a uterus owner, and not allowed to specify that you want to be addressed as a woman. Eg "You seem like the sort of uterus owner I like to talk to". Or do you mean they used the label "uterus owner" to describe a group of people, to include people who are women and people who want to be referred to as transgender men, in the context of a discussion in which uteruses is important?

Because there's quite a big difference.

(I ask this rhetorically, because I think I know the answer, but your objective has already been achieved Grin)

FOJN · 30/11/2021 18:27

Obviously men and women can be survivors of invest and rape. Should transwomen have to go to groups for male victims of incest and rape?

Why ever not TW are male, intact they can't be a TW without being male. Often there are groups specifically for TW so they do not have to go to male groups. Why do you think women deserve less consideration?

I also believe that trans women have the highest rate of sexual assault/ violence against them out of any group.

Oh dear...
Possibly true if you are a South American sex worker by not in the UK. Even in South America women are murdered at higher rates than TW. We know that murder rates for sex workers are higher than for non sex workers, this does not mean it's OK but it undermines the claim that TW are murdered because they are trans. Evidence from across the globe shows TW are less likely to be murdered than nearly all other groups. In the UK there are marginally more trans murders than murdered trans people.

I sometimes think people post things like this so they can have a moan, making regular people think trans women are monsters.

If you imagine a regular trans person is someone who experiences crippling gender dysphoria and undergoes medical and/or surgical intervention in order to present and be perceived as the sex opposite to that of their birth then your perception is at least 20 years out of date. Expecting a trans person to make any changes to their physical appearance is transphobic so if a suited, booted, bearded male tells you they are a woman then you would be transphobic to question that. Given that some TW are visually indistinguishable from other males how do you propose we tell who is trans and who is not?

I urge every kind woman in the fence about this stuff to know that transwomen just want to be safe.

How does allowing any male who claims to be a TW into female spaces keep TW safer than them using male spaces? It doesn't, it just makes things less safe for women. Third spaces have been proposed and rejected, women's safety is merely collateral damage in the pursuit of validation. Forgive me for not being terribly sympathetic to a group of people who would happily endanger women for such selfish motives.

They have difficult hard lives please be kind.

You've seen the stats for violence against women so I think we can all agree life is no picnic for women either, is their a reason you think we are less deserving of kindness?

And always remember it could be your son/ daughter/ brother/ niece/ dad who comes out as trans next.

I have fully supported someone very close to me through a full transition and was nothing but kind. Are you confused about what kindness means? Just because someone is upset they didn't get their own way it does not mean I have been unkind to them, it means I have boundaries.

RaisedByPangolins · 30/11/2021 18:27

@wellbehavedwomen you articulate it so well, thank you Flowers

Gerlais · 30/11/2021 18:27

Thanks for the replies on this. I feel so much better knowing I have at least some support in regards to my opinion.

To those that don’t think it’s real … I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t have believed it until today either.

Lastly I’m not linking the group as that would most likely out me on mumsnet (Facebook isn’t anonymous remember) but feel free to join a few, you’ll come across the post eventually - just don’t link it on here if you do (please)

OP posts:
Appledrop · 30/11/2021 18:27

@LuneyTunes

'owner' - it's bizarre, like it needs walking three times a day and regular 'maintenance' !
Grin Spat my tea out laughing reading that. You do have a point though.
TheElementsSong · 30/11/2021 18:28

The early Be Kiiiiiiind-appeal-to-motherly-emotions-of-silly-pink-fluffheads mask seems to have slipped in more recent posts Grin

FOJN · 30/11/2021 18:28

Sorry, so many typos...

GetTheFlockOutOfHere · 30/11/2021 18:28

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weinerdog · 30/11/2021 18:30

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